Saturday Morning Oy - August 19, 2017

Cidu Bill on Aug 19th 2017

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Filed in Barney & Clyde, Bill Bickel, comic strips, comics, humor, oy | 18 responses so far

18 Responses to “Saturday Morning Oy - August 19, 2017”

  1. Singapore Bill Aug 19th 2017 at 12:57 am 1

    Whenever someone tells me about what they would like to happen when they die, my response is “I’ll get right on that.”

  2. fleabane Aug 19th 2017 at 01:10 am 2

    I admire commitment to setting up a good pun, but … that one really wasn’t worth the negative and nihilistic imagery it evokes.

  3. chuckers Aug 19th 2017 at 06:57 am 3

    “Should have seen that coming”

    Well, I did. Sort of got telegraphed in panel 2.

  4. Mitch4 Aug 19th 2017 at 08:15 am 4

    The pun on “chum” reminds me of another fishing term, “trolling” - - which I recall as the main association at the origin of that word being used for the practice of provocative / insincere social media posting. Rather than the little Nordic monsters living under bridges, which seems a predominating association today.

  5. Mitch4 Aug 19th 2017 at 08:32 am 5

    Those with a theoretical inclination may want to take my #4 as posing a case of the usual dilemma between the public historical path in etymology, and the personal lexical path.

    Even if I could wheel out stacks of documentation showing the fishing sense used in a metaphor of “trolling for an outraged response” well before the “ugly little monster” sense got connected, the millions of speakers who never had the fishing association at all and learned about “Internet trolls” from the monster sense are not really wrong if they say “it comes from A not from B”.

  6. James Pollock Aug 19th 2017 at 12:12 pm 6

    Of course, people who want to keep those two things separate spell them differently… trawling for fish (or Internet replies) and trolling for, er, small children to steal? What does “trolling” mean in that sense?

  7. Ted from Ft. Laud Aug 19th 2017 at 01:12 pm 7

    James Pollock @ 6 - trolling and trawling are different things (at least in the fishing sense). Trolling is dragging lines behind a boat (at least some of us have probably done this). Trawling involves the use of large nets, and is probably only done in commercial fishing. I believe they are considered more or less synonyms in their non-fishing senses. (The “hanging inducements out to attract fish” sense probably was analogized to attempting to similarly attract children.)

  8. mitch4 Aug 19th 2017 at 01:19 pm 8

    No, not confusing with “trawling” though there are resemblances. Doesn’t “trawling” require a rather big boat — a “trawler”? In my region, the two words have very different vowels.

    But I learned the fishing term “troll” back in say the 1970s, for fishing with a rod and line off the back of a small boat, which is being rowed or outboard-driven at a medium speed. With a fairly long line, and a fairly quiet propulsion, your baited hook moving along in the water passes muster for the fish as a smaller swimmer or maybe swimming bug. The effect is maybe what non-moving fishers get by waving the rod and pulling the bait along.

    The adults would say “we’ll troll along the other side, then come around the rock.” And “your outboard is revving too high, it’ll spook the fish; and we don’t want to be moving quite that fast to troll successfully”. I don’t know when I first saw it written, but it was always “troll”.

  9. James Pollock Aug 19th 2017 at 01:49 pm 9

    “trolling and trawling are different things”

    Tell these guys about it:
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trawl

  10. mitch4 Aug 19th 2017 at 02:24 pm 10

    James, that mentions one item in “trawl” is defined as “troll” and links to their entry for the latter: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/troll . If you compare the full entries, you see a different set of meanings and relations.

    In any case, I guess I still don’t see what your larger or original point was. Your #6 was in response to my #5, but I didn’t get whether and where there was a particular point you disagreed with me on. (Apart from whether “troll” and “trawl”, in fishing senses, are similar or the same.)

    In particular, are we in agreement that the “Internet provocative posting behavior” sense of “troll” [that is, M-W’s sense 2a] can be seen to have semantic association with the fishing sense of “troll”?

    And, for some people’s memories, likely originated from that — via “fishing for responses”?

    But for some other people, synchronically is more closely related to the mythological sense of “troll” [M-W’s noun entry] ? And may seem to those people to have arisen from that?

    And that those sets of people may end up disagreeing on the origin? “It comes from the fishing term!” / “No, it comes from the mythology!” Working from their own experience, which is a reasonable starting place of course.

    Those were my points in #5. If you’re not contesting those, what are we disagreeing about? Is any of that affected by bringing up “trawl”?

  11. Ted from Ft. Laud Aug 19th 2017 at 02:26 pm 11

    Well, the Merriam-Webster editors probably aren’t fishermen, and go with a very abbreviated definition there, and even so, mention use of a trawl.

    Oxford goes into more detail here, talking mostly about those words as used for “search”, but giving background.

    If you really care about the fishing aspects, the Wikipedia articles on trawling and trolling go into the details, and each article mentions/contrasts the other method.

    You can pass that on the Merriam-Webster if you care…

  12. James Pollock Aug 19th 2017 at 02:29 pm 12

    “what are we disagreeing about?”
    I paid for the full half-hour.

  13. mitch4 Aug 19th 2017 at 02:41 pm 13

    Thanks for the Oxford link, Ted. I was particularly happy to see this (somewhat afterthought) remark, which appears to take for granted the origin of the Internet villain sense from the fishing sense:

    While this use of troll originated with the idea of fishing with a baited hook, it was also probably influenced by the mythical troll, a ‘cave-dwelling being depicted in folklore as either a giant or a dwarf, typically having a very ugly appearance’.

  14. chakolate Aug 19th 2017 at 04:38 pm 14

    For the word nerds here (and it seems to be most of us), you might find this interesting:

    https://www.amazon.com/Word-Secret-Life-Dictionaries/dp/110187094X/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1503174975&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=word+lexicograph

    I listened to a podcast with the author just this morning and now I want the book. :-)

  15. Meryl A Aug 22nd 2017 at 02:41 am 15

    Today on Jeopardy (which is probably a rerun - collegiate edition) there was “an answer” along the lines of a friend in England, and fishing in the US - of course what is “chum”

  16. Brian in STL Aug 22nd 2017 at 01:32 pm 16

    I would say that the noun/adjective version of “troll” is back-formed rather incorrectly from “trolling”. Regardless of the original etymology, this form is now firmly associated with the mythical creature. A not-too-uncommon response to provocative statements (especially on the largely unmoderated usenet groups) was something like, “Clip clop clip clop.” Referring of course to the Three Billy Goats Gruff story.

  17. Ted from Ft. Laud Aug 22nd 2017 at 04:27 pm 17

    I’m not sure about that - I remember on numerous groups some (usually more good-natured) trolls commenting when they got complaints that they just put the lines out, no one had to bite. So perhaps both backgrounds were explicitly noted?

  18. Dave in Boston Aug 23rd 2017 at 01:32 am 18

    AFAICR, both forms were always part of it well before endless September. What’s changed over the years (and ISTM fairly recently, but such perceptions are notoriously unreliable) is that the term used to be reserved for posting flamebait or otherwise trying to get a rise out of someone (also a fishing metaphor, no?) but now seems to be a catchall term for any kind of bad online behavior whatsoever.

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