Comments on: Celebration

By: sjelly

sjelly — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 07:22:38 +0000

***I am submitting this again as I think a couple of words my prevent it from being posted. If it appears twice, please excuse me.***
I recommend that each and everyone of you use this amazing tool, the google, I think it’s called, and check out how many Palestinian civilians were killed this year by the Israeli government versus how many Israelis, whether civilian or military, were killed by Palestinian militants. Check out how many olive groves, homes, and businesses of Palestinians were destroyed by the Israeli government. The google can tell you about the blockade which is keeping FOOD away from all Palestinians, not just the “radicals.” How many illegal (by which I mean illegal according to ISRAELI law) settlements were built this year. Perhaps by using the google we might learn that the deaths of Palestinians (like those of Iraqis and Afghans) don’t matter at all. Israel’s actions are always right and righteous, and the acts of militant Palestinians are an exact reflection of the sentiments of ALL Palestinians. You know, the way a single violent act by radical violent Muslims reflects the intentions and beliefs of all 1 billion+ Muslims. Or the way one violent Christian who slaughters a doctor in church because that doctor provides abortions, absolutely reflects the thoughts and beliefs of every Christian. Or the way one xtian group which turns up at military funerals declaring that the dead are dead because “God hates f***,” are absolutely the emblem of xtianity everywhere in the world. Child r***** priests are proof of what all Catholics are. Hate. It’s not just for breakfast anymore.

By: sjelly

sjelly — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 07:00:37 +0000

I recommend that each and everyone of you use this amazing tool, the google, I think it’s called, and check out how many Palestinian civilians were kill this year by the Israeli government versus how many Israelis, whether civilian or military, were killed by Palestinian militants. Check out how many olive groves, homes, and businesses of Palestinians were destroyed by the Israeli government. The google can tell you about the blockade which is keeping FOOD away from all Palestinians, not just the “radicals.” How many illegal (by which I mean illegal according to ISRAELI law) settlements were built this year. Perhaps by using the google we might learn that the deaths of Palestinians (like those of Iraqis and Afghans) don’t matter at all. Israel’s actions are always right and righteous, and the acts of militant Palestinians are an exact reflection of the sentiments of ALL Palestinians. You know, the way a single violent act by radical violent Muslims reflects the intentions and beliefs of all 1 billion+ Muslims. Or the way one violent Christian who slaughters a doctor in church because that doctor provides abortions, absolutely reflects the thoughts and beliefs of every Christian. Or the way one xtian group which turns up at military funerals declaring that the dead are dead because “God hates fags,” are absolutely the emblem of xtianity everywhere in the world. Child raping priests are proof of what all Catholics are. Hate. It’s not just for breakfast anymore.

By: Araxie

Araxie — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 03:56:29 +0000

To me this- and most of the radical anti-west groups- simply tell us just how much many Palestinians and Middle-Easterns have taken from the West. The resentment just builds and builds- in areas that have histories of being very culturally proud in the first place.

When an entire culture is subjugated AND is generally poor to begin with, violence and anger are final defense mechanism.

Does this excuse their actions? Of course not- it’s no more appalling when the Middle East does it than when it’s Jewish soldiers taking pictures of themselves next to a dead Palestinian with a boner (yes, this really happened). But it’s the way some groups of any society would react, depending on the history and degree of their scarring. It’s simple psychology (anthropology?).

By: Igelino

Igelino — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 15:39:54 +0000

Tim, the outrage didn’t result in any significant CONVICTIONS. Actions (or in this case a lack of) speak louder than words.

And your post is almost like saying, since KKK were Christians, their actions were condoned by all Christians.

By: Powers

Powers — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:51:18 +0000

The Muslims I know are horrified, Tim.

By: Tim

Tim — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 12:47:52 +0000

When the Abu Grahib story broke, there was outrage in America and a call for the prosecution of the people involved.

When American prisoners are mistreated, dragged through the streets, or beheaded, what kind of reaction does that have among Muslims?

There’s the big difference.

By: Lola

Lola — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 02:22:06 +0000

If I’m understanding the circumstances correctly (and that’s not necessarily so), then the 4 civilians were settlers. If that’s so, then they were probably seen not as settlers but more akin to invaders. In a twisted sense, this made them fair game. Unfortunately this IS a part of human nature. Not one of its nicer parts, but part nonetheless. We form groups and cheer when our side scores. Doesn’t matter if it’s high school basketball, NFL, NHL, boxing, states, countries, space race, religions, political parties, and on and on.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if every time there was a civilian casualty in any conflict then the agent(s) involved would be prosecuted as murderers. Would all the fighters become more careful? The end of wars and fighting would be nice and it’s something worth aspiring to, but I have serious doubts it could ever be achieved while we are still humans.

By: James Pollock

James Pollock — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:34:50 +0000

Bill, I think it IS a war… a civil war (ironically, these are the most barbaric and incivil) and it is the unequal military strength which forces the weaker side to resort to terror. You could see the same thing in Vietnam, in N. Ireland during the Troubles, and in the occupied Palestinian territories. The Arab powers thought they could win the war by attacking on the Sabbath, and got badly surprised when they learned that enough Israelis would, in fact, fight on the Sabbath. The attack was repulsed, the territories captured, and… for over 40 years Israel has vacillated on what to do with the territories. It won’t give them back because they don’t want to be attacked again, and it won’t absorb them because, as a democracy, they won’t take the risk of becoming the minority (you can see the danger… Hamas won in fair elections in one of the territories.) So they hold on. Because that war has never truly ended, the majority of the people who live in the territories have lived in a state of war for their entire lives. A few thousand years ago, this would have been settled by a genocide. And THAT’S why they celebrate the taking of innocent lives… they don’t see anyone as innocent.
Not one word of the preceeding is intended as an apologia for the Palestinians… abject surrender, though distasteful, has remained an option for a very long time, and they have chosen to continue the struggle. I won’t waste my tears on people who choose their fate.

By: Cidu Bill

Cidu Bill — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 22:36:19 +0000

CTew, “I’m sorry” was directed toward anybody who might be offended by my comment. I stand by the statement for this reason:

First of all, this is not a war, so wartime comparisons are all invalid. No matter what or how the Gazans feel, if they actually did declare war on Israel, the situation would resolve itself in a matter of hours.

To the matter at hand: If Hamas had blown up half of Tel Aviv, or the Knesset, or taken down the Israeli equivalent of the Twin Towers, this would be a reprehensible act of terrorism but I could understand a street celebration.

Celebrating in this matter over the ambush murder of four civilians is something I simply can’t reconcile with normal human behavior.

By: CTew

CTew — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 22:22:57 +0000

CIDU Bill, I have no problems with your feelings and share many of them, except “but I’m sorry, these people aren’t human beings” is just plain wrong.
If those people were not human beings, there’d be no need to feel sorry for making the statement. They are, however, and your apology reflects your unease. If you perceive them as less than fully human because of what they celebrate, then you need to review history a bit more. Members of every religion and every ethnicity that I know of have celebrated at the deaths of real and perceived enemies sometime in their history. Sad but true, this is what human beings have done, and fortunate are the peoples who can pretend they will not do it again. Those among us who shed a tear while killing are few and far between.
I an also not comfortable with the distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters. Examples: each Hanukkah recreates the temple celebration of the Jews’ “freedom of religion” when the statues of Greek and Asiatic deities were removed from the temple in Jerusalem and the sole worship of Yahweh restored, but accompanying that “religious freedom” was the wholesale slaughter of Jews and non-Jews who had adopted Greek religion and customs and participated in public worship, baths, and games. The French Maquis celebrated - literally - not only killing German soldiers and civil officials and sabotage against the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS, they also celebrated - literally - the murders of French conservatives who were their political opponents and anyone else who collaborated with the German occupiers.
I think “freedom fighter” is too often a crutch or excuse rather than an accurate choice of terms.