Merry Christmas to all

Nicole, life experience is a source.

“In the same rough spirit of the Puritans’ opposition to Christmas, December 25 remained without legal status as a holiday in 19th century America, and employers, like Ebenezer Scrooge in England, had the authority to decide whether or not to allow workers time off to attend church. Federal employees were required to show up for work. “Congress met on Christmas Day every year from 1789 to 1855, with only three exceptions,” and “public schools met on Christmas day in parts of New England at least until 1870.”4 It was not until June 1870 — three weeks after the death of the author of A Christmas Carol — that the U.S. Congress made Christmas into an official national holiday. “

The Bad Seed - I don’t think I ever once told you what you can and can’t do. I don’t go around looking for someone smoking a joint so I can call the police on them. In fact, I tend to think that it should be legalized. And if you think none of the items you mentioned hurts anyone, then why did you refer to them as “gray areas”. Let me ask this. Do you think sex with animals should be legal? How about polygamy? If not, then please explain why since as you infer it is not hurting anyone.

“There was no need to be more explicit in the US Constitution, since this was like water to a fish at the time”

Then why did any documents refer to god? If that is true shouldn’t all documents be as devoid of religious references as the Constitution. But that is not the case. You yourself have pointed out that religious references are common in state constitutions, and in many other documents of the time. Leaving out references to god in the Constitution seems to be deliberate.

“The first amendment was intended to prevent any one denomination from being the official religion, but this is far, far from intending “a secular state.” An early draft phrased this: “All men have an equal, natural, and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that no particular sect or society of Christians ought to be favored or established by law in preference to others.”

Quoting a first draft is meaningless. If the founders had wanted the first amendment to read that way they would have left it that way, they didn’t. They rejected this language for the far broader and inclusive of all religions: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” . This rejection of specific references to Christianity and changing it to refer to all religions makes it clearer that they were interested in a secular government.

“first amendment was intended to prevent any one denomination from being the official religion”.

Given you prior comments I assume you mean any Christian denomination. Then what you are saying is that the first amendment as it is written today would not prevent Islam as being established as an official religion ?

The exception for Sunday was simply a matter of practicality. That the vast majority of Americans of the time attended church on Sunday is not contested. That being the case it is not surprising that the constitution would make an exception for Sunday when most people would not be available. In the same way that New York schools close down for the Jewish holidays of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. So many people would be absent that trying to carry on business is pointless.

No, what is said is that there are zero references to god in the Constitution. Google “Constitution text” , go to a site that has the text of the constitution, and search for the word ‘god’ you will get zero hits.

I also said that there is no reference to Jesus in either document. For a country founded on Christian values this seems more than passing strange.

There are references to a deity in the Declaration of Independence. But as noted they are generic. Why use generic language when ti would make perfect sense to reference Christian tenets when founding a Chritian Nation ?

That the founders believed in a deity is not debated and it doesnt even matter if they were devout Christains. That is not in question. The question is did they intend a secular nation. The first amendment is unambiguous, “Congress shall establish no religion” You can interpret it using rejected language if you like, I will use what was enacted. “No religious test shall be required for office” again unambiguous. The founders did not want the government involved in religion or religion involved in government.

Also it is important to distinguish the Declaration from the Constitution. The Declaration was a statement of intent to separate from England and was written in the way that the world would understand.

The Constitution is the law of the land, and it IS significant that the law governing us does not mention god or Jesus. It begins “We the People” not “Almighty God”.

Re: The Treaty of Tripoli. Once again unambiguous language … “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;” If you have any documentation from the time supporting your statement that “The Treaty of Tripoli says that this was a secular nation; every other document from the foundation to around 1960 says otherwise. The logical conclusion is that things were toned down to prevent a war with Islam back then.” I should like to see them. These would be federal documents, since I have already agreed that many state constitutions had (and still have) religious references and we are discussing if the the United States was meant to be secular not Virgina, New York, North Carolina or any of the other colonies.

Actually, it was the chief justice of the NY supreme court, not the US supreme court.
Also, see http://www.sullivan-county.com/bush/myth2.htm

The truly ironic thing is that I got into this discussion by stating that Jesus was not born on December 25 and that there is no Biblical basis for celebrating His birth.