Comics I Don’t Understand

Losing Their Religion

Cidu Bill on Jun 18th 2009

Filed in Bill Bickel, Flash, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Superman, comic books, religion, super heroes | 41 responses so far

41 Responses to “Losing Their Religion”

1. DPWally Jun 18th 2009 at 12:57 pm 1

   I think we have to grant each comic its own universe, rather than grouping them into a single comic universe.

   So superhero resurrection doesn’t fit christian theology, but the Family Circus doesn’t have to deal with that because Superman doesn’t exist in the Family Circus universe. (Unless Billy is reading a comic book that exists within the FC universe.)

2. S. P. Charles Jun 18th 2009 at 01:06 pm 2

   “Comic book world,” S.P. Wally.

3. Ryan Jun 18th 2009 at 01:08 pm 3

   I’m thinking the God of comics is the good ol’ Ben Franklin Deism, where God is a creator who set everything into motion but doesn’t take an active role in the progression of events.

4. Keera Jun 18th 2009 at 01:16 pm 4

   Aren’t comic book stories just fairy tales for a more adult crowd? What surprises me is that there isn’t any religion in kids’ stories.

5. Keera Jun 18th 2009 at 01:20 pm 5

   To continue: Fairy tales represent real life in some way, recreating it using mythical figures or fantasy worlds. And religion is part of real life, whether or not one has one. So I can see why it features even in a universe that has Superman (though I’d love to hear the theologians debate that!).

   To revisit my surprise above: I’ve always wondered why Hansel and Gretel or Little Red Riding Hood didn’t kneel by a tree and pray. That’s what I’m saying. But I guess the obvious answer is that God is immaterial and even disrupting to the story.

   OK, now my brain is done and my ever so quick fingers may hit “Submit Comment” without upsetting what’s above my neck.

6. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^) Jun 18th 2009 at 01:23 pm 6

   Almost everyone needs something to worship. If they don’t have something, they’ll create something. It would be hard to fit current theology of several modern religions (though not all) into certain comics such as superhero comics, but I don’t think that these comic universes would be devoid of religion if they were real. The religion would likely just look different.

7. Mottsnave Jun 18th 2009 at 02:06 pm 7

   Keera, actually many folktales around the world have overt religious content, but sometimes it is excised or toned down in modern retellings. For example, if you read the Grimms’ Household Tales in their form as they were collected, there are characters who call on God, as well as religious fables, and also stories about contests with the devil, sinners trying to sneak into heaven, God and St. Peter walking around and testing people, etc. If you read the German Legends collected by the Grimms, the religious content is even more striking, with legends about saints, Martin Luther fighting the devil, etc. I think the lack of religious references is more a modern publishing choice rather than a reflection of the content of folk belief (not just in German folklore, that’s just a familiar example). Ironically, devil stories seem to survive a bit better (maybe because they often have a humorous tone?).

8. Keera Jun 18th 2009 at 02:10 pm 8

   Mottsnave, I haven’t encountered those versions in my reading, so I wasn’t aware of them. With the exception of references to Christian man’s blood (in both English and Norwegian fairy tales), I haven’t been exposed to any overtly religious content.

9. AMC Jun 18th 2009 at 02:12 pm 9

   Perhaps they worship their own origin stories.

   Or the authors thereof.

   Stan Lee, you look Marvelous. Just Maah-velous.

10. Fnord Jun 18th 2009 at 02:25 pm 10

    Well for one thing, deities in the comic book universe are positively known to exist. Some heroes get their powers from a divine source, like Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman. Others, like Thor and Loki, are actual deities walking around on the planet and interacting with the mortals’ lives. On one level they may be thought of as “only” powerful beings like any other superhero, but to the extent that they receive worship, it’s probably because of long tradition, from the people whose ancestors they spent thousands of years protecting.

    So even if the comic book populace were to consider Jesus “just another” powerful immortal figure, that doesn’t preclude the possibility of worship. Followers could believe that Jesus saved all of them from the worst fate ever, and will one day return to lead them again, and therefore is worthy of respect and honor forevermore.

    Just look at the cults Superman got while he was dead– and he wasn’t even gone that long. Imagine if he had appeared to those people a few days after his martyrdom, then ascended into the heavens with a promise to one day return and bring paradise. Add a few charismatic evangelists to organize followers in his name; let those followers gain great temporal power and maintain careful succession of doctrine. It’s not too hard to imagine how the Metropolis Supermanic Church might endure for hundreds or thousands of years.

    Now, one might argue that Superman’s powers are a lot flashier than Jesus’s. But it seems there were a lot fewer superheros two thousand years ago, so Jesus would have been quite impressive by comparison. (DC One Million seems to indicate that this trend will continue for an awfully long time. The future heroes generally have more and better powers than their 21st-century forefathers.)

11. buzz Jun 18th 2009 at 02:58 pm 11

    It depends on how close to reality a particular fictional world is trying to pass. We occasionally snark at LUANN, MARY WORTH, and the Funkiverse, but those fictional worlds try to maintain a surface similarity to the reality around us. When they become far-fetched, it’s in an overly melodramatic way, not by adding elements of the fantastic to the story.

    Conversely, strips like BREWSTER ROCKIT, LIO, or even such old standbys as DICK TRACY and LITTLE ORPHAN ANNIE have established much more fantastic realms for themselves. While the latter two occasionally seem to take place in the real world, they are also capable of adding a fantastic element at any time.

    Unless one creates a fictional world where the parameters are clearly set (i.e., “this is a future where the major religions are still around but people drive giant robots”), one does indeed run the risk of denigrating a particular belief by putting it on equal footing with a clearly fictional concept or character.

    Years ago when Tony Isabella (a devout Christian) was scripting the GHOST RIDER comic book, he introduced a character who was clearly meant to be Christ. Then Marvel e-in-c Jim Shooter forced him to change the big reveal at the end on the grounds that introducing Christ >as a character< in the Marvel universe would make Him just as “real” as Galactus and the Dread Dormomu. In other words, Shooter was afraid it would appear to be trivializing Christ and begging the question as to why He didn’t step in to handle some of the supernatural menaces in the various books.

    At roughly the same time, Al Hartley licensed the ARCHIE characters for the Spire line of Christian comics, in which most of them were shown to be believing, practicing Christians (IIRC, Big Ethel has portrayed as agnostic but curious while Reggie seemed definitely hellbound). It worked insofar as the main ARCHIE story line is set in a reasonably realistic world (there are numerous stories involving aliens, witches, superheroes, and international spies but those are considered non-canon). The Archie characters (with the exception of Sabrina, but she had her own book) were not implausibly cast as Christians since the world they inhabit (middle class small town America) is a predominantly Christian culture (86% according to the 2000 US Census).

    (Oddly enough, Marvel’s PUNISHER did make a cross-over to the Archiverse in a story that surprisingly accomodated both characters without undermining their respective fictional worlds.)

12. Cidu Bill Jun 18th 2009 at 03:12 pm 12

    Specifically, Isabella wanted Ghost Rider to be freed of his curse through the power of prayer, therefore using Jesus as (literally) a deus ex machina. Even putting aside other considerations, that would have been bad, bad writing.

    To this day he apparently still does not get that, believing that Marvel’s editors were simply being intolerant of his faith.

13. Seth Finkelstein Jun 18th 2009 at 03:45 pm 13

    It’s not so much “how religion can exist”, but rather that the world should be much more polytheistic. When there’s literally war between gods, and praying to a diety sometimes undeniably *works*, there should be much more interest in theology. People should be on talk-shows discussing the deals they made with demons, while priests would be giving public lectures on defense against vampires, werewolves, and black magic.

    There basically would be a thriving free market (or market battles) in gods - they’d actually have something very specific to offer worshippers.

14. fet101 Jun 18th 2009 at 04:30 pm 14

    Religion might be more prevalent actually. There’s currently only one well known resurrection story, but the comic world has many many more. It’s very hard for me to accept this one time while there is definitive proof to comic book world people that it does happen, and quite often too.

15. Todd Jun 18th 2009 at 04:30 pm 15

    Back in the 80s, when I started reading comic books, I wanted to do a story where “everything you know is wrong”: Asgaard and Olympus were creations of Mephisto, meant to lead people astray from the One True God.

    But then again, at another point, I also wanted to reveal that Captain America was a clone, the fifties Cap was the real Cap, and all the early Avengers were in on the lie.

16. padraig Jun 18th 2009 at 05:27 pm 16

    Just remember that the gods of myth were essentially the superheroes of early culture, which is of course why Hercules, Thor, etc. all fit in so well in the superhero world. Eventually the monotheistic God idea came along to more or less trump the mythical gods. I mean, did Zeus pray to someone?

    Superhero comics are supposed to be fantasies, so a comic with religious themes can seem to be inherently blasphemous, or if it’s positive, proselytizing. Kevin Smith really likes to walk that line, but he’s kind of a Unitarian Catholic.

    Comics thrive on drama, and once God comes into the picture, there’s no more drama. He’s invincible. BOR-ing. That’s why they gave Superman kryptonite.

17. Spiritcatcher Jun 18th 2009 at 06:02 pm 17

    Chronicles of Wormwood, anyone ? very nice comic about Jesus, the antichrist, their respective fathers … and a talking, blog-surfing rabbit.

18. Fnord Jun 18th 2009 at 06:37 pm 18

    @padraig: If the Abrahamic God were a superhero, what would his weakness be?

    Sin Rays? Blasphemite? Having his name taken in vain, like a kind of biblical Mr. Mxyzptlk?

19. Dave Van Domelen Jun 18th 2009 at 06:48 pm 19

    It’s turtles all the way down.

    In other words, all the gods in Marvel and DC have powers above them, who have powers above them, etc. Eventually we reach a level where we don’t get inside the heads of the top layer and don’t KNOW if they have powers above them as well, but one suspects they do. Ever-increasing power, but never completely infinite.

    The current Mr. Terrific is an ongoing attempt to write an atheist in a world full of gods. It’s not that he denies their power, he simply doesn’t accept that there’s an omnipotent top level, or that the finite gods are worthy of worship. At some point, there’s a layer of really powerful beings who are deluding themselves into thinking there’s someone more powerful than they, as far as MT is concerned.

20. Dave Van Domelen Jun 18th 2009 at 06:56 pm 20

    Oh, and at the other end of the scale, many superheroes have had churches founded in their names (and usually against their will). Supergirl had a church during her angelic period (and she met a guy who implied he was God, but he moved in mysterious ways and all that), Mar-Vell in Marvel got a church when he seemingly returned from the dead, etc.

21. AMC Jun 18th 2009 at 07:04 pm 21

    If Jesus were a superhero, I think his weaknesses would be that he’d be freaked out by “your Mom” jokes, and fear nail guns.

    His arch enemies would be arcade change machines and California vinters worried about him horning in on their business.

22. Mark in Boston Jun 18th 2009 at 09:23 pm 22

    @Keera:

    Hansel and Gretel DO kneel down and pray. “Evening Prayer” is the most famous part of Humperdinck’s opera.

    When at night I go to sleep,
    Fourteen angels watch do keep ….

23. Seth Finkelstein Jun 18th 2009 at 10:40 pm 23

    Actually, I think it’s quite possible to write religion in a comics world, but the constraints of the market limit it. Religion hardly has to be synonymous with mild Christianity. The Spectre, for example, is fine as “the wrath of god”. Biblical angels are kind of medieval superheroes - they’re beings with strong but not infinite power, who are agents of a mysterious superior, who have adventures in the world. Batman would work well as someone who believes there is a god, but it’s a malevolent thug.

    You can’t have all-powerful all-knowing God, but then, that’s a big problem anywhere, if you think about it seriously (e.g. if God knows everything, doesn’t that deny free will?)

24. Lessa Jun 18th 2009 at 11:30 pm 24

    Preacher was a comic all about God. If I remember correctly, God got tired of the whole thing and took a leave of absence. Preacher went looking for Him and found all kinds of nasty characters.

    John Constintine, Hellblazer, was another whose themes were derived from religion. He made a pact with the devil, when he was diagnosed with lung cancer. He had a nember of nasty run-ins with devils, angels, and arc-angels

    Sandman was a god himself, along with his siblings.

    Comics aren’t the only fictional genre that brings people back from the dead. Soap operas do it all the time. Especially when a favorite actor is fired and the fans get mad about it. Then, whoa, it wasn’t really him/her in the coffin. Soaps have even more clever ways to bring folks back than comics do. They also manage to age their kids overnight. And there are frequent scenes, usually in a hospital chapel, where they pray for the loved ones to survive.

25. Cidu Bill Jun 18th 2009 at 11:47 pm 25

    Lessa, there’s a difference between “We thought he was dead but he really wasn’t” and “Marley was dead… There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner. Scrooge signed it: and Scrooge’s name was good upon ‘Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to. Old Marley was as dead as a door-nail.”

    What we’re talking about here is death, burial, and Jesus-on-the-third-day style resurrection. To paraphrase Bob Parr, “When everybody is godlike, nobody is godlike.”

26. Lihtox Jun 19th 2009 at 12:29 am 26

    Your examples are all “miracles” or supernatural events/powers, but religious faith doesn’t have to be based on miracles. In fact, the New Testament criticizes miracle-based faith in some places (though not all): “Jews ask for signs, and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach the Messiah crucified.” (1Cor1:22-23), and Jesus’ comment to Thomas after the Resurrection: “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (Jn20:29). Miracles and miracle stories can be comforting to believers, but faith (by definition) doesn’t require proof.

    Sorry to go on a bit about this.

27. Dave in Tech Support Jun 19th 2009 at 12:52 am 27

    Some of you might be interested in reading the book ‘Miracle Monday’ by Elliot S! Maggin.(Wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Monday
    Or read the entire novel - http://superman.nu/thebook/mm_contents.php )

28. Seth Finkelstein Jun 19th 2009 at 03:23 am 28

    @Fnord “If the Abrahamic God were a superhero, what would his weakness be?”

    I think he’d be rather like a version of the Hulk who is more intelligent than a child but still not all that bright, and prone to being tricked and going off in destructive rages. The Hulk doesn’t usually have a gimmick-weakness (not counting transforming back to puny Banner eventually). One of the type of characters with a huge amount of physical power but not a lot of smarts or emotional stability. Remember, the Old Testament god was not the sort of cosmically powerful entity that came later, but was fairly limited in absolute terms.

29. Elliott Jun 19th 2009 at 10:24 am 29

    Today’s Chickweed reminded me that religion is well and alive in the comics.

30. Kamino Neko Jun 19th 2009 at 10:35 am 30

    Sandman was a god himself, along with his siblings.

    The Endless are specifically NOT gods. Morpheus brings this up at a few points in the series. They, however, are friends, lovers, rivals, enemies, and so forth TO gods.

    The aforementioned Mr Terrific once had a conversation with Ragman (who is Jewish) about the topic of atheism and theism - Ragman’s argument was fnord’s - there is explicit proof of the existence of gods. Mr T’s was exactly as Dave lays it out.

    I bring thus up to point out some small ironies in the conversation - Ragman derives his powers from his costume, which is made out of souls. The conversation took place outside a church where Zauriel, an angel, was presiding over a combination mass/rallying of the troops. Mr T is on a team that, at various points included the incarnation of the Wrath of God and the servants of multiple lesser gods (Nabu - various Dr Fates - and the Olympians - Wonder Woman, Fury), and which, at one point, was involved in a runthru for Ragnarok.

    While his argument is certainly valid, given the circumstances, it’s far from a slam dunk.

    Another point that bears consideration - while the various ressurections of superheroes kind of take the uniqueness out of Jesus’ trick, some, though not all, of the not-so-late heroes and villains remember, quite well, the afterlife - and some have been to various afterlives while still alive (mostly Hell, though a few have visited Heaven, and the afterlives of other religions), meaning the existence of a) the afterlife - or, rather, multiple afterlives b) souls which populate those afterlives, and c) beings who preside over them (gods, demons, angels, valkyries, whatever) is an observable, observed, and pretty much undeniable fact.

31. Scott Jun 19th 2009 at 12:17 pm 31

    @padraig: If the Abrahamic God were a superhero, what would his weakness be?

    Judges 1:19 - the weakness seems to be chariots of iron.

    I think the real answer is that introduction of religion causes all sorts of theological issues. Did Christ visit Krypton? Were Kryptonians fallen? In any case, the creators of Superman were Jewish, and no doubt figured that it was better to ignore the whole issue - especially since we don’t feel the need to spread our religion around.

32. Keera Jun 19th 2009 at 12:42 pm 32

    @Mark in Boston, I have only read “Hansel and Gretel” and that was years ago. It’s interesting (and a tad relieving to this deist) that other versions do have them doing something as common as praying.

33. Lessa Jun 19th 2009 at 01:22 pm 33

    CIDU Bill–point to you. I misunderstood. When I read/watch this fiction, it is always in the back of my mind that TPTB will bring the dead ones back at some point, especially if the character is popular and there is a huge outcry about their demise. That said, Congratulations Bill on starting a very interesting topic. It gets the rusty mind gears working.

    Kamino Neko– also point to you. In my defense, it was a good 15 years ago that I read The Sandman. My memory isn’t what it used to be.

    Religion is what you make of it. Many conservatives, evangelicals, and/or fundamentalists want nothing to do with fiction, let alone (gasp) comics. Fiction, of any kind, can make you think for yourself and question established beliefs. Look at the controversy over the Harry Potter series.

34. Keera Jun 19th 2009 at 02:30 pm 34

    Lessa, according to many Eastern philosophies and metaphysicians, what we call reality is itself a fiction. That is not something fundamentalists like to hear. I enjoy good science fiction/fantasy because it is the genre that can shake us out of our complacency and get us asking “what if”, but then I’m not worried about what will happen if the rules as I know them suddenly no longer apply.

35. Cidu Bill Jun 19th 2009 at 02:33 pm 35

    Elliott, I don’t know whether the current Chickweed storyline is religious, sacrilegious, or merely an indication that Brooke has been smoking some of that chickweed. I’m sure I’m not the only person who finds it unpleasant on multiple levels.

36. Cidu Bill Jun 19th 2009 at 02:36 pm 36

    But Keera, if it’s an existance we live in, doesn’t that legitimately make it our reality? How can we define it any other way?

37. Keera Jun 19th 2009 at 03:17 pm 37

    Bill, there is what we each perceive as reality and then there’s what actually is. We have our individual realities (over 6 billion, currently, and counting) but we also have many collective illusions, taught us by our culture/family/religion/political party, so we don’t perceive that what we experience isn’t real or all there is. The claim is that this entire physical existence, including our bodies, is one big illusion and therefore, if we put our mind to it, we can reshape it/matter into anything we want. Or rather, anything we can believe.

38. Crumple-Horned Snorkack Jun 19th 2009 at 03:29 pm 38

    There’s a Superman story in which he and Supergirl are visiting a star about to go nova, and something goes wrong and she gets knocked unconscious, and goes flying away faster than the speed of light. Supes goes after her, and just as he’s about to catch up a guy in a robe stops him, saying that no mortal is permitted to see what he would see if he were allowed to continue. Supergirl was not stopped because she is not conscious, so no problem. Supes tries to fight weird robe guy, to no effect whatever. Sometimes weird robe guy is immovable and solid. Other times Superman passes right through him and comes out at a right angle from how he approached. Weird robe guy never so much as moves.

    Eventually, weird robe guy conjures up another Superman to fight the real one, saying that Superman can only defeat the fake when he sees it for what it is. Superman and the fake go at it for a few panels, and then Superman says “What, a maniac attacking for no reason and using force to get what he wants without thinking?!” Whereupon fake Superman vanishes.

    Finally, Superman slumps his shoulders in defeat, and says “I’m just trying to get my cousin back.” Weird robe guy hands Supergirl over to him, saying “You had only to ask.”

    It seems to me that such an experience would be humbling in any number of ways, and may well be sufficient to inspire in Superman a sense of the numinous.

39. Keera Jun 19th 2009 at 03:37 pm 39

    Snorkack, that Superman scene reminds me of Luke Skywalker meeting himself in the cave in “The Empire Strikes Back”. Which reminded me that the discussion of what is reality, or how we trick ourselves with our beliefs, has been the subject of many stories.

40. Lessa Jun 19th 2009 at 04:38 pm 40

    Getting back to Bill’s original question of how can religion exist in a comic book world, I have to go with Keera’s explanation of illusion reality. Or possibly alternative reality. Just because a large portion of the western world believes in a large book with an old and a new section doesn’t make it any more viable than the Native American “myths” or the Austrailian Aboriginies “Dreaming” or the Druids. All peoples, all cultures, have some type of religion to explain what they don’t understand. The comic book worlds are their own realities, therefore how they handle religion is up to them.

    BTW, Bill. I am enjoying Chickweeds take on God right now. I don’t find the smarmy little man any more disturbing than the big guy with the white beard sitting on his throne. I like the fact that the couple who used to be a priest and nun, i.e. His servants, are now really, really mad at Him for threatening their child.

41. Winter Wallaby Jun 19th 2009 at 11:47 pm 41

    The whole world would be totally different if it was a comic book world. The writers have to assume that the world is pretty much the same, but with superheroes/villains, because it would make things too different to figure out all the ways that the world would be different.

    It’s pretty hard to imagine the economy functioning the way it does now when there are geniuses who can whip up amazing technologically breakthroughs in a couple of days. Or that the government would have the same role when the most important aspects of keeping its citizens safe were taken care of by vigilantes. And peole wouldn’t feel much of a sense of security or stability in a world where every couple of years aliens or supervillains either destroy a major city, or come seconds from destroying the world—that has to affect everyone’s psychology, and make society totally different.

Comments RSS

Leave a Reply

Name (required)

Mail (hidden) (required)

Website

Notify me of followup comments via e-mail