Comics I Don’t Understand

RSS: The Controversy That Never Should Have Been

Cidu Bill on Jun 8th 2009

Filed in Bill Bickel, Google, Google Reader, RSS, aggregators, comic strips, comics, humor | 79 responses so far

79 Responses to “RSS: The Controversy That Never Should Have Been”

1. tim Jun 8th 2009 at 05:54 pm 1

   The entire point of RSS feeds to is syndicate your work. I mean, that’s in the name itself (really simple syndication). Removing the content require people to visit your site is the opposite of what an RSS feed should be.

   You’re going to lose a lot of viewers this way, I can almost guarantee it. I checked your site at least once per day because I’d receive 2-3 updates to my RSS feed one day, and at least one of those would prompt me to visit the site and read the comments on a particular client. Your RSS feed is now being removed from my list because it’s just clutter without any content.

   I’m not going to be the only one.

   If you’re not making money off the site anyway, then let’s read the content in the way thats most convenient for us. And let’s not forget that you, yourself, are reusing other people’s content in a way that isn’t what they originally intended. It is hypocritical to take other people’s work for your own purposes and get upset when we do the same.

2. Morgan Jun 8th 2009 at 05:56 pm 2

   Okay, so as I understand it, your objection to RSS readers is that other people might have trouble making money using them? That’s silly. Other people have found ways to monetize RSS feeds just fine, by inserting ads into their feeds. If your ad provider only pays you for ads viewed on your site, then if you have a lot of readers using RSS, it might be time to change ad providers.

   Making your feeds less useful will bring fewer users to your site. It will do nothing to bring down RSS.

   I read a lot of RSS feeds on my phone, using an offline reader that lets me read feeds on the subway. I can view any content that’s in the feed, including embedded images (and yes, embedded ads), but I can’t click through to see anything outside of the feed. So I tend to drop feeds that require me to click to see the content.

   You’re worried about Medium Large going away as a result of RSS, but Medium Large offers a full feed, with the comic embedded in it, and it’s still around. Why don’t you worry about your own site, and let Franseco worry about his?

   I’m not saying that you shouldn’t run your site the way you want to, of course. I’m saying that you won’t accomplish your stated goals by doing what you’re doing.

3. Rebecca Jun 8th 2009 at 05:58 pm 3

   I use the Google Reader notifier that has the option of opening all the RSS posts on a browser. It’s actually faster than going to Google most of the time.

4. schleifnet Jun 8th 2009 at 05:58 pm 4

   I think your setup is ok, but you may want to start lookinginto the use of the ‘fold’ for publishing…

   wordpress let’s you split you’re posts in two (you already were doing this for long one), do this more to encourage us

   also look at feed based ads to add to the setup, pvponline is doing this and putting special ads in his feed for rss users only (as opposed to site visitors) I think he uses feeddemon or something similar to do this…

   another comic i read has started changing how comics (main content) display in his feed so you can read commentary via the reader but have to click through for the full on image which may work for you

   Additionally wordpress allows you to create a defined summary for short (not full post) feeds that you might want to look at

   I don’t think content should be free, but I do think the summarized post in my reader should give enough info to get me to the post

   love the site and I’ll visit it either way, just wanted to put in some hopefully helpful two cents

5. Eric Jun 8th 2009 at 05:59 pm 5

   A couple comments…

   RSS feeds that just include a title don’t survive long in my RSS reader. I need to know more about whether that post is going to interest me or not. Something more than 5 or 6 words.

   RSS feeds that include a worth while teaser paragraph are fine. There are lots of news sites that do this successfully.

   There are ways to monetize the number of subscribers to a RSS feed. There are tools out there to find out how many people subscribe to your feed like Feedburner. Feedburner can also insert ads into your feeds. There are ways to make money in the “new internet”.

   You’re current RSS feed amounts to a title only usually. There are very few words in your posts and the comics aren’t in the feeds anymore. I’m just asking that you include enough info to help me decide if I should click through or not. So far, your titles haven’t been enough.

6. Cidu Bill Jun 8th 2009 at 06:12 pm 6

   Morgan, I’m not trying to accomplish a thing: I’m just not going along with something I think is wrong. That’s how I was raised.

   And online advertising is a buyer’s market: You can’t just drop advertisers and expect others to be knocking down your doors.

   And Tim, if you think all I do is reuse other people’s content, then why are you even here? Besides, any cartoonist who doesn’t want his work used here an have it permanently removed, immediately, unconditionally and with no questions asked. When Google makes the same offer, I might begin to take your comparison seriously.

   By the way, RSS never used to mean pulling the full content. Just because the concept has now been expanded in that direction doesn’t obligate me to adhere to it. CIDU offers the same sort of feed I use to follow other sites.

7. Chennette Jun 8th 2009 at 06:21 pm 7

   I’d just like to echo Eric - perhaps there could be more on the RSS feed so I know what I am clicking through. My problem, which may lead to a dwindling of visits to your site, is that I cannot usually load your blog at work (where I rely on such reads for my coffee break time). The pages never load - I gather that this might be a problem limited to sucky-office-internet in the 3rd World, but there it is. If I see the comic and want more (the comments.explanations etc) then when I am browsing at home, I click through. Without that, there’s nothing to get me to remembering to check the site for the comments.

   That being said, it is your choice to determine how you wish to circulate/publish your content. I used to just provide a portion of my post for RSS, not just because I preferred to have people visit the site for access to other content, but mostly because I like having just an intro/tease even on my main page - so that the loading page isn’t just endless all long posts that people can’t skim through easily to see if there is anything of interest. Realising that many readers probably prefer to read content in the reader, I now try to make sure my current post is left in its entirety, and gradually abbreviate the older posts.

8. Louis Jun 8th 2009 at 06:24 pm 8

   I’ve got to be honest (and a little harsh); I use Google Reader because I don’t like the layout of this site. I don’t like that I have to scroll down past all the ads and links just to see the comic. I often visited the site when the comics showed up on the RSS, because I liked to read the comments sometimes, and I guess I’ll still do that, but it’s a bit annoying that I have to click on the link, scroll through to the bottom of the page, where the comic and the comments are, read the comic and then decide whether I want to read the comments. I’m sure I’ll learn to live with it though, even if it means missing a few comics if the headline doesn’t look interesting. Or something could be done about the page layout. Surely my two computers aren’t the only ones in the world with this viewing problem.

9. The Ploughman Jun 8th 2009 at 06:31 pm 9

   Old Man Ploughman here. First off, I think without everyone’s fondness for CIDU, none of this would be an issue in the first place, so kudos to Bill for a great site that I plan to visit regardless of its delivery format.

   I find it odd that those who are apparently far too busy to click on the links in the CIDU RSS feed without some sort of pictorial representation have found the time to complain that the free content of this website is not being delivered in the manner that best suits them. As a multiple RSS thread subscriber (through that devil Google) I understand how multiple posts can get backed up and take some time to wade through for desirable information. Some feeds (many of them comics) I subscribe to have the full content appear in the reader, some do not. Is it a pain to click over to the actual site on these? A little, as many as there are. I then have to decide if it’s worth it to keep my subscription to that feed knowing it’s going to take a little extra time and bandwidth to get there or not.

   If I can risk getting snarky here, I have to say to option of self-entitled whining in the forums has not appealed to me over, say, quietly unsubscribing to sites I’d rather not take the time to visit. If you are actually taking the time read this post to the bottom, you are probably not in this category.

   I suggest as a compromise, that the RSS feed not include the actual cartoon content (that’s the juicy part that we’ll have to visit the site to see) but perhaps a quick text description/teaser (in addition to the usually amusing title of the post) to give some idea of the content of the post in RSS reader. Example from this week:

   (title) Missed it by a Nose
   (RSS content) Sunday’s Wizard of Id seems to have be long on noses, short on punchlines. [link to post]

   Not saying this is the best descriptor. It’s an extra sentence or two of writing for Bill, but it’s also an extra opportunity for some cleverness or to jump start discussion.

   Anyway, see you in the funny pages.

10. Cidu Bill Jun 8th 2009 at 06:34 pm 10

    I see what you’re saying, Chennette, but unfortunately WordPress software doesn’t give me many RSS options: It’s either what you see before you now, or the whole enchilada. Nothing in between.

    And Louis, the fact that wide comics force everything down to the bottom of the page bugs the hell out of me as well, but I’m tied into the templates offered by WordPress. Every time they offer one that I think MIGHT allow for wider graphics without screwing things up, I download it and try it.

    Of course a few weeks ago, I tried a new template and about five minutes later (when I’d already decided it wouldn’t do but hadn’t had a chance to revert back yet), somebody angrily e-mailed me to say he hated the new template and he was never coming back to my site again.

    So you know, damned if you do and damned if you don’t. But I’m still trying.

11. The Ploughman Jun 8th 2009 at 06:37 pm 11

    Ah! My hubris. Speaking of people who don’t read to the bottom (me in this case)…

    I see the idea of an extra descriptor/teaser in the RSS feed was brought up by others ahead of me. I think it’s a good one.

12. Morgan Jun 8th 2009 at 06:41 pm 12

    Ploughman: I haven’t seen anybody in this thread declaring that they’re entitled to a full feed. Just people (like me) pointing out that the result of dropping the full feed will be fewer visitors.

    Personally, I intend to continue to offer a full feed for the blogs that I maintain, because I want my users to be able to view my content in whatever way is most convenient for them, rather than forcing them to view it the way I think they should. And thank goodness, most of the blogs that I follow, including many that make enough money to allow their maintainers to run the blog as a full-time job, do the same.

13. AMC Jun 8th 2009 at 06:56 pm 13

    Don’t care about RSS.

    So, no matter what you do with your feed parameters, I’ll still click on the site.

    I guess I’m just a Cro-Magnon that the RSS dependent won’t understand.

14. Norm Jun 8th 2009 at 07:04 pm 14

    Bill’s site. Bill’s rules. Don’t want to visit? Your loss. I know, I know; Bill’s loss too. But, he’s already said that’s a price he’s willing to pay. My two cents worth.

15. Frosted Donut Jun 8th 2009 at 07:12 pm 15

    I use RSS through my Mac Mail app. I just recently upgraded, so it’s still a shiny new toy for me. I only follow a couple of feeds, and CIDU is one of them.

    Some of the site feeds give me the full content, but I still click through to read the comments. So it doesn’t much matter to me if Bill includes the comic or not, because I’d still click through. I just like knowing when something has happened at the site.

16. Drew Jun 8th 2009 at 07:14 pm 16

    Yep, it’ll be my loss, but I will be unsubscribing from this site. I’ve got an established “workflow” for reading my subscriptions and yours is currently the only out of the 57 feeds that requires a click-through to view any content.

    It is too bad, and I do see your point, but that’s the way it goes, I guess.

17. Lessa Jun 8th 2009 at 07:23 pm 17

    Norm, ITA. Bill’s site. Bill’s rules. RSS is a complete mystery to me and the above explanations made it even more so. I am a tech idiot and don’t even have a cell phone (gasp) so I don’t care what other fancy things people come up with. I like Bill’s site just the way it is and hope he just keeps on keeping on.

    Bill, for all of us who don’t complain, Thank you so much for all your hard work. I love the site and don’t even mind (much) when I have to scroll down to the bottom. That’s the price I pay to enjoy your content and am thankful its available.

18. Clix Jun 8th 2009 at 07:56 pm 18

    Bill
    As Lessa said it’s your site, do with it as you will. I think you are to be commended for sticking to a principle, not enough of that left in the world. I’m never sure why there are those in the internet who think applications have to be used a certain way. For sites who’s content I consistently enjoy it’s an update notifier. So if you’re just showing the header or the entire text I’ll click through. For some ’sites’, like RACS, I use it to see if there are updates in threads I’m following, or for Tech or News sites about areas of interest, and so on.

    The two main reasons I use Google Reader for my RSS feeds are 1: It’s server based so I can log in from any machine and see my feeds, 2: Its free. Will/does Google attempt to profit from it? Of course, they’re a for profit company and its not a bad thing. Just use some common sense in what information you expose to them.

    Anyway, do what’s right and keep up the good work.
    Clix

19. Dan Jun 8th 2009 at 07:58 pm 19

    It is a shame and it is the right of the provider to do what he will, but Eric is correct - it’s virtually certain that people will simply stop coming. I’m really surprised WP doesn’t give you an option to have only part of the post appear in the feed. I run WP 2.8 and thought you could enter text into the Excerpt field for this purpose. I bet there’s a plugin for it, if nothing else.

20. Cidu Bill Jun 8th 2009 at 08:20 pm 20

    It will be interesting, I suppose, to see what the PV stats look like a week from now. Since readership on Google Reader don’t register as pageviews, I doubt the change will be all that drastic (if there’s a decline at all).

    And Fet101, who ever said “RSS readers aren’t real ‘members of the CIDU’ community?” I certainly didn’t. I have no problem with people who used this option when it was part of the site.

    And the funny, mostly-forgotten thing is, up until not very long ago, the option didn’t even exist.

21. dd Jun 8th 2009 at 08:21 pm 21

    I use my RSS feed as a way to keep up with more websites at once, even if I don’t read every post on every site every day. Like others, I would usually make it here at least once a day to read people’s responses to the comics.

    I think that’s kind of the point, Bill. Every site has to have a way to encourage its readership to come to the site. SMBC has the extra panel of its comic, you have great comments with pretty much every post. The comics were ALREADY the teaser part of the site, with the comments being the meat.

    I know you want to be a responsible web user, but every site owner has to be able to draw people in using their own means. That will be different for every site, and making Google the bad guy doesn’t get to the heart of the issue. They may monetize their Reader at some point, but they also provide YOU a service. They let your feed be viewable to a wider audience - along with people like me who keep up with too many sites to visit each one every day, there are people who get here via the “suggested feeds” that Google Reader provides. I have added a dozen or so feeds to my reader based on Google’s suggestions. Demonize them if you will, I’m not saying they’re perfect, I’m just saying they help you more than they hurt you.

    I’ve been here through several site changes and a lot of years, so I doubt I’ll go away altogether, but even I would have to say that I am already visiting less with the full comic being missing from the rss feed. No big loss, but I think it’s one that can be avoided if you’ll appreciate the draw you ALREADY have for people to visit the site even with full comics in the rss feed.

22. Chennette Jun 8th 2009 at 10:11 pm 22

    Bill, for the record, I’m not one of the angry leave-the-RSS-alone people I prefer the old way because of my delinquent at-work reading ways, but so far I’ve been clicking through to the site regardless AT HOME, so time will tell if I can build this into a habit. That’s the lure of Google Reader for me you see, rather than bookmarks fixed on one browser on one computer (I use 2 to 3 different computers daily), because I tend to get distracted in my head I can procrastinate from my procrastination.

23. Size Jun 8th 2009 at 11:56 pm 23

    I wouldn’t really describe RSS as a “marginal” time saver, but as a fan of the site, I’ll go ahead and click through anyway. And, I apologize for posting an RSS-related comment on one of the other threads when it was clearly not the right place for it. I ought to have posted it here.

24. Singapore Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 03:44 am 24

    CIDU Bill, I don’t get people. I remember finding your page back in 1997 or 1998. It was updated once a month and we were happy to have it. Now everyone is all too busy to bother. To hell with them. You’ve put in a lot of effort over the years and Google can pay for it if they want it.

25. Brent Jun 9th 2009 at 03:59 am 25

    Cidu Bill, 10:

    Except that it wasn’t putting up the entire content before either. Because the RSS contains only the question… the answering is always in the comments, which were not part of the syndication. This site used to be a perfect example of how RSS could really work, by informing people of new posts, hooking them, and dragging them over to the site.

    As it currently stands, the RSS items get lost now because they’re short with no real content. I was wondering where the site had gone until I caught this RSS item, because when I was flipping through my comics feed (all jumbled together into one stream) the items had no presence. In my comics stream that pretty much means death, because that feed is filled with images. I’m not going to cancel it right away… I tend to do purging in bulk sessions every few months, when feeds with no RSS content are often the first to go. I’d like to think that this is just a phase… if you’re taking a stand about giving out content for free, this isn’t the place or way to do it. The real content wasn’t being syndicated to begin with… what you had was working exactly right.

    To be honest, one thing that’s almost as bad as sites that syndicate without content are the ones that syndicate with the entirety of huge articles. Most sites get it right, though… the purpose of the RSS feed is to get people to keep up with your website and lead them in with abstracts of articles that appeal to them. You could not have any RSS feed and try to force people to visit each day, but then you’d get into competition with every other site that the person dedicates a visit to every day… which is orders of magnitude less than the number of sites a person can keep up with via syndication. A good RSS feed provides can keep a sizable number of less dedicated fans attached to the site. They aren’t the type that were going to come every day (because they have better things to do with their lives), but that’s far better than those people just dropping the site altogether because there are other sites that are bigger and more important (really, I pay attention to a good number of sites with RSS and visit them all from time to time, but without it, I’d just be visiting the ones I consider the most comprehensive… meaning less eyeballs for the small guys). But in order for that to work, you need enough content in the feed to quickly hook them and lead them over. A contentless feed doesn’t do that (beyond informing the core dedicated users of an update… not exactly useful on a site that updates regularly). Too much content also can get in the way of sorting through the feeds quickly.

    AMC, #13: It’s not about dependency, it’s about shortening my time online to get more time for things offline. RSS turns the web into Usenet… and having read Usenet for a few months short of 20 years now, I’ve become very quick at flipping through things quickly to read the handful of things that might be truly interesting. RSS allows me to cover a lot more of the web in much less time.

26. Carl Jun 9th 2009 at 07:24 am 26

    I may be alone, but I actually prefer not to have the entire thing syndicated. My mode has always been to have my newsreader (NewsFox) open each entry in its own tab, and having comics content in the preview just means I have to carefully avoid looking there to avoid spoilering myself.

27. Jer Jun 9th 2009 at 08:39 am 27

    Just FYI Bill -

    Your software may not be able to support it, but plenty of people have RSS feeds that actually have advertising embedded in them. It’s actually a pretty common thing nowadays from what I’ve been seeing. I actually think that it’s more useful advertising too, since it’s usually a single ad embedded into the RSS feed for an article, I tend to notice it (rather than block out the noise - I’d even forgotten that your site carried advertising until this whole RSS thing blew up - I just rarely notice banner ads anymore unless they’re ugly or offensive in some way).

    RSS is a really damn useful tool - and it’s most useful when it’s syndicating a whole column, not just giving you a bookmark to go look at the page. I understand your objections and hey, it’s your site you can do whatever you want, but RSS is not content thievery and it’s not “wrong” to publish your entire page in an RSS feed - it’s just a tool for packaging things up and delivering content in a convenient form to your readers. I can tell you, I have sites on my RSS feed that syndicate their whole columns and other sites that just force me to click through to read a new article. The sites that syndicate the whole column usually get read every day and often I click through to comment. The sites that don’t only get clicked through when the post title catches my interest. That’s a pretty typical reading habit for folks who use RSS in my experience.

28. Chipper Jun 9th 2009 at 08:40 am 28

    This will make no difference to me. I’ve never learned about RSS & don’t plan to.

    Love the site.

    Cheers

29. Nicole Jun 9th 2009 at 09:23 am 29

    Ok — I haven’t read all the comments .. so sue me

    I don’t know how many feeds I have, some provide full content, some provide partial content, and some are just a title. It is true that I don’t visit the sites that are just titles nearly as often as the sites that provide the other types of feed. But for me CIDU is different.

    I have been coming to this site for years, way back when it was being updated so randomly that you could go a month with out any change and then two or three changes in just a couple of days. If you wanted to keep up, you would check the web site at least once a day.

    I really enjoy CIDU, and if Bill did away with the RSS feed all together I would still come here. It is worth it to me visit the site, it may not be worth it to everyone make that extra mouse click. What I think will happen is that the people who don’t think it is worth it will go away, I am sure I will miss some of thier comments, but new people will come that will take their place. They will not have the expectaion of a full content RSS feed and Bill’s readership will grow to where it is now, and the people who come to the site will just appreciate it for what it is.

30. Elyrest Jun 9th 2009 at 09:35 am 30

    I don’t use RSS feed. The people who are “unsubscribing” are making a choice that their lives are so fast paced and full that the only way they will be interested is if you feed it to them with a spoon. I find that rather sad. Like Nicole, I click here several times a day. I like the site. I like Bill’s whimsical comments and I like to read what others have to say about comics.

    Thanks, Bill.

31. furrykef Jun 9th 2009 at 09:55 am 31

    Bill:
    The issue I have — even though, as I’ve said before, this whole RSS kerfuffle has no effect on me personally — is that I think you’re taking a stand where none is necessary, and I don’t think the stand you’re taking is going to be effective, even in principle.

    Your stance seems to make Google Reader and similar services to be the bad guys here. But all they’re doing is redistributing RSS feeds exactly as they receive them. That’s what RSS is for, isn’t it? You can’t blame them for doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.

    As for this issue:
    Adding ads to the RSS feed (even if you want to redesign your site to accommodate Google Reader) isn’t always an answer, because ad revenue often requires the ad to be viewed on the site itself.

    Well, that would seem to be a problem with the ad technology, not with Google Reader. That’s a problem that needs to be worked out between the site owner and its advertisers. It’s the ad technology that causes the problem, so the people behind it are the ones responsible for fixing it. Google doesn’t enter the equation here.

    And you know Google didn’t create the Google Reader as a public service: They’re either using it to mine data from its users, or they’re going to start tacking on their own ads, or both. Don’t Be Evil WILL find a way to monetize other people’s work, because that’s what they do.

    I don’t find this to be a particularly relevant point. They have ads on search results, which I don’t think anybody finds objectionable; presumably this would just be exactly the same thing.

    Clix:
    I think you are to be commended for sticking to a principle, not enough of that left in the world.

    I don’t think sticking to a principle is itself honorable. What if the principle is wrong? Whether it’s honorable depends entirely upon what the principle is. After all, Hitler stuck to his principles, right? (Oops, I guess I just invoked Godwin’s Law…)

    I’m not saying that Bill’s position is entirely wrong, I don’t really know, I’m just arguing with your logic here (especially since the same logic could be, and often is, used in a debate over something much more important).

    - Kef

32. Birdseed Jun 9th 2009 at 01:10 pm 32

    I’ve got nearly 400 feeds giving me over 200 new posts a day, the vast majority full-content - clicking though on each one every time would give me carpal tunnel like mad and slow me down way more than “marginally”. (now it’s just j, j, j…) I used to click through on at least 70% of CIDUs though, if they interested me - but I’m absolutely not going to do it with a no-content feed.

    Goodbye and good riddance.

33. Cidu Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 01:40 pm 33

    Golly. Did I accidentally run over Birdseed’s dog or something? Why are so many people treating this as a personal assault? And if you think what you’ve seen in the comments section is bad, you should see the e-mails.

    Fun fact: Of all the people who have angrily and vocally swore never to return, in some cases cursing both me and the horse I rode in on, not one of them as far as I can tell has ever commented on a single comic.

    Hey, maybe they weren’t actual readers at all, but rather members of Google’s secret Internet Hit Squad. You never know…

34. Cidu Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 01:51 pm 34

    furrykef, you’re absolutely right: Sticking to your principles is not necessarily a force for good. And I’ve certainly made wrong decisions in my life, as have we all. But I have no hidden agenda and nobody’s died, and that has to count for something.

    But I have to disagree, in general terms, with your statement that if something does what it’s intended to do, that makes it acceptable. Both crack cocaine and the T-1000 meet this criteria, but that hardly makes them good things.

35. Nicole Jun 9th 2009 at 01:57 pm 35

    If they don’t have the time to click through, they certainly don’t have the time to comment. And then there is the work factor — they can’t click though, imagine the work involved in commenting. Yikes !!!!!!!

36. Cidu Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 02:26 pm 36

    Yet there’s plenty of time to curse me out; and the ones who used e-mail had to go to the FAQ page to find my address.

37. HM Jun 9th 2009 at 03:12 pm 37

    I agree completely with Nicole and Elyrest. I just don’t understand the vitriol about this. How hard is it to click a link for heavens sake?!

38. Nicole Jun 9th 2009 at 03:30 pm 38

    Question : What is the worst thing that has happened to you in the last week

    If your answer is “CIDU no longer sends full content in the RSS feed” … quit-ur-bitchin

39. Bullhistle Jun 9th 2009 at 03:54 pm 39

    This whole discussion makes my head hurt. I couldn’t care less how other people access the site. I have it bookmarked and visit daily and I thing Bill is great for doing it.

40. Keera Jun 9th 2009 at 04:28 pm 40

    I’m with Eric et al who have said a title alone isn’t enough in an RSS feed. Currently, I’m back reading CIDU in a regular web browser, but I run the risk of maybe missing a post or forgetting where I left off. Yes, I could use the RSS feed just to keep track of what I’ve read, but I balk at the necessity of having to do that.

    Well, we’ll see what happens. I understand, Bill, the principle you are trying to uphold, and if I’m not fine with it, I’ll just go join Birdseed. In the meantime, I really like the new look and the new interface for commenting. Much nicer!

41. Size Jun 9th 2009 at 04:46 pm 41

    Just wanted to add a couple other thoughts here… CIDU Bill, you said: “Don’t Be Evil WILL find a way to monetize other people’s work, because that’s what they do.”

    Actually, no, that’s not what they’re doing. They’re presenting existing content in a more useful way (for given definitions of useful), which, as someone pointed out, is the whole point of syndication. That’s adding value, and it’s pretty reasonable to expect some compensation for it. I used RSSOwl long before Google Reader was around and when I went from work to home (and vice-versa) a bunch of articles I’d read were marked as unread again. Now my updates follow me. It’s a matter of preference, really.

    That said, I still agree it is your site to do with as you please, and I do appreciate the content you post.

    I also think it’s interesting how many people have posted that they’ve never heard of RSS with an obvious air of superiority. Is there any field other than technology where ignorance is considered a reason to be proud?

42. CIDU Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 05:09 pm 42

    I don’t happen to believe that repackaging other people’s content, whether those content providers want you to or not, and adding absolutely nothing to the content, constitutes “adding value.”

    Let me ask you this: If I wrote a program, Bill’s Mail Reader, with which you could access your Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail from billsmailreader.com without ever visiting Google’s site, I’m sure this would be insanely popular. Do you think Google’s attitude would be “Good work, dude, you’ve provided a valuable service for the Internet community”? Or would they, I don’t know, try to sue my ass off?

43. furrykef Jun 9th 2009 at 05:31 pm 43

    Well, I think the “Bill’s mail reader” analogy is invalid, because Google never authorized you to do such a thing. By publishing an RSS feed, you are authorizing Google to republish your content. Otherwise you wouldn’t publish the RSS feed in the first place. (Or maybe it’d be blocked in robots.txt… I dunno if that works for RSS feeds or not.)

    The thing is, you’re taking a stand because you think somebody is doing something wrong, but I don’t see any guilty party here. Google’s not doing anything wrong because I don’t see how republishing content that they’re given the right to republish is wrong. The creators of RSS aren’t at fault here either; RSS is just a medium (or whatever the right word for it is). If anybody is at fault, it’s the ad companies for not making ads that are robust enough to work correctly when viewed from an RSS feed. If your ire should be directed at anybody, I think it should be them.

    - Kef

44. Nicole Jun 9th 2009 at 05:36 pm 44

    “Is there any field other than technology where ignorance is considered a reason to be proud?”

    At the risk of starting a whole new thread I just HAD to comment on this

    To a large degree in America, all knowledge is suspect and smart people are elitists. Al Gore lost to someone people would like to beer with, the republican party portrayed Obama as an elitist because surely you don’t want a Harvard Law graduate running the country. Science in general is frowned upon when about 50% of the population believes in creationism. News programs spend enormous time on Anna Nicole Smith, ignoring real news. Clearly, ignorance is highly prized in this nation of ours.

    Having said all that, I have to defend the people who do not know about RSS feeds. I am not a geek, I do not spend enormous amounts of time keeping up with the latest and greatest. I seek out what I need and that is about it. Sometimes I stumble across a useful thing that I did not know about. — like RSS feeds. I have no doubt that there are many useful things on the internets just waitng for me — I just have other things I would rather be doing. Oh … and before anyone accuses me of being a Luddite — I am a computer programmer

45. CIDU Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 05:51 pm 45

    Actually, furrykef, when my RSS feed began, it was only offering the title and maybe a few words. I’m not sure when it became a matter of “lifting the whole post.” All I did this week was revert matters to what I’d originally agreed to.

    I stand by my analogy because its point is that I’d be “adding value” and therefore not only should this be justified, but there should be nothing wrong with my being richly compensated for it. I would, after all, be doing a service to the user regardless of the wishes of the people who provided the content to begin with.

46. Lessa Jun 9th 2009 at 08:35 pm 46

    Thank you, Nicole. I am probably one of the ones to whom Size refers. I am an admitted tech idiot. I wish I was better at tech stuff but my mind just doesn’t work that way. Believe it or not, some people just can’t get it, no matter how hard they try. I find what I need on the internet and enjoy what I find. Like Nicole said, there are plenty of other things out in the real world and mostly I’d rather be doing them.

47. Tiffany Jun 9th 2009 at 08:38 pm 47

    Just thought I would throw this out there… I actually found your blog via Google Reader’s suggestion box. Seemed pretty good, so I kept my eye on it from time to time. However, I’m gonna have to be one of the ones removing you from my feed. Once upon a time, you tell someone they are gonna be able to make money on the net, just by blogging, they would have LOL’d in your face. Strange stuff.

    Anyway, pleasant readings and good luck!

48. Andrea Jun 9th 2009 at 08:49 pm 48

    Furrykef #43, by choosing to restrict his RSS feed to titles-only, Bill is doing just what you suggested — he’s making a choice about whether or not to authorize others to republish his content. He chooses not to do so, so he’s not publishing the content via RSS. It’s as simple as that.

    Bill, I do use an RSS reader, but not for your site. I so enjoy reading the full posts, with comments, that I have Live Bookmarked CIDU instead. It tracks which posts I’ve read, but still allows me to visit the site conveniently.

    I’d also suggest that those who are too busy to click through to your site to read the content should perhaps consider reading fewer blogs if this is cutting so severely into their time. I can’t imagine who would have the kind of free time one would need to check on 400 sites per day.

    Perhaps, Bill, it’s you who should be saying “goodbye and good riddance.”

    Please keep doing what you do and know that those of us who are still reading enjoy it enough to keep coming back!

49. Nate Jun 9th 2009 at 09:12 pm 49

    I am offended that you aren’t willing to put more effort into providing me with entertainment with no compensation. Also, I am disappointed that you have not yet gotten me that pony I have been waiting for.

50. Size Jun 9th 2009 at 09:27 pm 50

    Content is only part of the issue. Making the formatting better and more convenient is, in my opinion, adding value. Music distributors are making classic albums available as mp3 downloads. They’re not adding anything to the content, but they are adding convenience, which has it’s own value.

    Second, I have to disagree with your analogy. In fact, that application already exists in many, many forms. Well, I don’t know for sure about Yahoo or Hotmail, but GMail actually allows you to use any mail application to get mail via POP3, without visiting the Google web site, but it hasn’t resulted in a lawsuit. And, in fact, if you used Microsoft Outlook to do so, you would be compensating Microsoft for the privilege of doing so. Thunderbird is still free, however.

    @Lessa - Sorry for the miscommunication, if you thought I was referring to your comment in my comment. Actually, it wasn’t you. I didn’t mean to imply that there’s something wrong with not knowing every detail of every thing - certainly, none of us can do that. I have seen at least one comment where the commenter seemed to take it as a point of pride, and perhaps I shouldn’t have said anything, because I think it was on another thread, even. I find it odd, that’s all.

    @Nicole - I’m going to say “ouch” for America. But, now that you mention it, I guess it’s more common than I wanted to admit.

51. Cidu Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 09:47 pm 51

    Music distributors are making classic albums available as mp3 downloads. They’re not adding anything to the content, but they are adding convenience, which has it’s own value.

    They do this with the explicit, specific permission of whoever owns the content, and they pay for the right to do so. Way different from what’s happening here.

52. Lessa Jun 9th 2009 at 09:50 pm 52

    Thanks, Size, for clearing that up. I’m somewhat touchy on the subject because I really do feel stupid when my 15 year old grandson gives me “That Look” and says “Here Grandma, let me add some songs to your ipod for you” He has showed me several times and I always screw it up.

53. Cidu Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 09:58 pm 53

    Lessa, ask your grandson to start a record playing on a phonograph and see how far he gets on a technology he didn’t grow up with.

54. Lessa Jun 9th 2009 at 10:12 pm 54

    Thanks, Bill. That idea gave me the laugh of the day.

55. Carl Jun 9th 2009 at 10:46 pm 55

    Bill, actually packaging does add value. Doesn’t mean you have to like being included in the package. For instance, do you think that short story anthologies are valueless since the stories are available in other ways?

    Again, you can and will refuse to be packaged, and I personally have no problem with it, but I’m into accuracy. For those who like that sort of thing, Google Reader most certainly adds value. Your problem is that they cut directly into your (and other bloggers’) revenue.

56. Cidu Bill Jun 9th 2009 at 11:02 pm 56

    Carl, I never said that packaging doesn’t add value; only that it’s nice if you have first have the right to take that content and add value to it.

    As it happens, stories of mine have been included in anthologies — only I agreed to allow the stories to be used, and they gave me money.

57. Size Jun 9th 2009 at 11:57 pm 57

    You’re right, CIDU Bill, it is different. That was probably not a great example. However, I’m not convinced that explicit permission is that much different from implicit permission; at any rate, I don’t wish to talk this issue to death (any more than I already have).

    I think what’s essential is that we get back to the business of figuring out those confounded comics. Thank you for creating a site where we can do just that!

58. Mayara Jun 10th 2009 at 12:03 am 58

    “Carl, I never said that packaging doesn’t add value; only that it’s nice if you have first have the right to take that content and add value to it.”

    That’s what having an RSS feed means. It means you allow the content included to be syndicated, which is *exactly* what they’re doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

    It’s like when someone complains that a web-browsing client downloaded a page they had available online, (without even any robots.txt rules asking them not to), saying they “didn’t have permission.” Um, yes, they did. (And yes, people do complain about that. However, the frequency of that complaint seems to be dropping as people figure it out.)

    But basically, yes, you were giving RSS readers of all stripes permission. They weren’t screen-scraping or anything. They were presenting content you were providing, without changing it. If you change what’s available in the RSS, or remove it entirely, that’s your right, but at no point has Google done anything remotely wrong here.

59. furrykef Jun 10th 2009 at 12:23 am 59

    Furrykef #43, by choosing to restrict his RSS feed to titles-only, Bill is doing just what you suggested — he’s making a choice about whether or not to authorize others to republish his content. He chooses not to do so, so he’s not publishing the content via RSS. It’s as simple as that.

    I have no issue with him choosing to do so, only his reason for doing it. He seems to be implying that Google Reader or at least somebody is doing something wrong, but I still don’t see anything remotely wrong about what they’re doing. If Google Reader is cutting into ad revenues, it’s not their fault, so they’re not to blame for that. Beyond that, they’re only doing basically exactly what the content publishers are telling them to do. There are only two people here who can be held at fault for the problem Bill describes: the advertisers for not providing the technology to properly handle ads in feeds, and the content providers themselves for 1) putting up with said advertisers, and 2) providing the problematic content to Google Reader in the first place. The content provider is responsible for being aware of what content the RSS feed is providing, and controlling it. It’s unfortunate that some webmasters aren’t aware of such issues, and such awareness definitely needs to be spread. But that’s currently just the way the web works. In any case, it’s not Google’s fault.

    Yes, Bill has every right not to publish full content in the RSS feeds, and I have no quibble with that. However, he’s doing it because he’s seeing somebody doing something “wrong”, and I’m just not seeing that.

    - Kef

60. Jenny Jun 10th 2009 at 01:19 am 60

    I’d just like to toss into the ring that I don’t care at all about RSS feeds — don’t use them — but I have been reading regularly for over a year and have never commented. Does that make my opinion worthless, Bill? If I did have an opinion on RSS feeds, would you dismiss it? Since I lurk, should I leave?

    Anyway, I love the site. Thanks for it.

61. CIDU Bill Jun 10th 2009 at 01:30 am 61

    Jenny, your opinions are greatly valued!

    My comment was that the people who left in a huff were people who never participated. There’s nothing wrong with not participating — a majority of visitors don’t — but it just seems silly to make such a big deal about leaving if the rest of us never knew you were here. And since these were people who were adamant about rarely if ever actually visiting the site, it’s particularly odd that they think anybody cares.

    I’m glad you love the site. I hope you continue to enjoy it.

62. Freezer Jun 10th 2009 at 03:11 am 62

    I must express my bemusement at those who are getting seriously “I am seriously considering dropping your site”-level upset about one extra click to get to the actual content.

    Do you guys have no other feeds where you have to go to the site to get the full content? Or is this simply a case of “How dare you mess with our comfort level?”

    Seriously, people. It’s a click. It’s for a good reason. Call down, have some dip.

63. Adam! Jun 10th 2009 at 03:51 am 63

    Unlike a lot of people here claim, most of the feeds I have syndicated do NOT provide all their content in the feed: comments are omitted, alt-text is omitted, or text past the first paragraph is omitted. SMBC’s RSS feed has a creative approach: people who go to his site get a bonus panel (there’s no red button in the feed). As far as CIDU goes, I consider the comic a teaser for the community discussion, which to me is the real content. If I just wanted to read bad Heathcliff strips I can do that anywhere; I come here specifically to participate in unraveling the mystery of a really out-there Bizarro, or to hear different interpretations of a subtle Arlo Award recipient.

    That said, of course it’s your site, and you’re a good man for entertaining discussion on the subject. If I were in your position, with people complaining that the free content I was providing wasn’t formatted exactly to their liking, I would probably just turn my RSS feed off entirely.

64. Nicole Jun 10th 2009 at 07:44 am 64

    As I believe I said before — this is one of the most ridiculous discussions I have ever seen.

    People — we are talking about a mouse click. You don’t have to walk a mile uphill in the snow … naked an barefoot while carrying a rabid hyena to get to the site.

    A mouse click!!!! If that is too much effort for you, well then, clearly you don’t like the site THAT much and maybe you shouldn’t visit — RSS feed or no RSS feed.

    For me, this is certainly one of my favorite sites and I will continue to visit regardless of the RSS feed content or if there is an RSS feed at all.

    And with that … I bid this silly discussion adieu. I am off to focus on much more important things like “How Arlo is that comic ?”, “are dung beetles as gross as we think they are ?” and just what does that comic with the dog, the priest and the mattress salesman mean ?

    “Hello … I must be going”

65. The Ploughman Jun 10th 2009 at 10:48 am 65

    Nicole (and others) - Louis CK (clip below) is on to something about the entitlement complex new technology can give us: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETv3NURwLc

66. Elyrest Jun 10th 2009 at 11:33 am 66

    Size - people said they didn’t use RSS feed, not that they hadn’t heard of it. I certainly know what it is and know how to use it. I find that, for the most part, it isn’t useful to me. And people will always try to feel superior about something - it’s human nature.

67. Elyrest Jun 10th 2009 at 12:19 pm 67

    I commented on Size’s comment w/o reading all the other comments so just add what I had to say in context to all the others.

    And……………………………………..

    If you give Nate a pony I want one too!

68. CIDU Bill Jun 10th 2009 at 12:28 pm 68

    Ploughman, that is not only one of the best clips I’ve ever seen on YouTube, but applies perfectly here: People are irate about being deprived of technology that didn’t exist ten seconds ago.

    The link bears repeating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETv3NURwLc

69. Clix Jun 10th 2009 at 02:09 pm 69

    furrykef #31
    At the risk of spreading thread drift, in my view the word principle carries with it an undertone of morality. Now Morality, that’s a whole other can o’ worms.
    As I use to ask my philosophy teachers. “If a man’s value is hypocrisy, is he a hypocrite if he doesn’t follow his values?”
    Not wanting to impose on Bill’s hospitality if you wish to discus this further we can take it off line:
    Clix Ho-HumProductions dot Com
    (No this is not the forum equivalent of ‘Let’s take this outside!’)

70. Elyrest Jun 10th 2009 at 03:24 pm 70

    Oh, Clix. Now my head hurts and I’m going to spend the rest of the day trying to figure out that hypocrite thing.

71. Karen Jun 10th 2009 at 09:13 pm 71

    CIDU Bill, I don’t often post, but I want to take a moment to thank you for this site. And mention how I use it. I’ve been reading CIDU for years now, and I see your site as a kind of performance art. RSS or no, I wouldn’t dream of viewing it other than in the original form. Think about this, folks: for years now, this one guy has been taking snippets of the comic universe and turning them into thoughtful art pieces (this free-posting ‘comment’ feature is pretty new). Would you RSS the Guggenheim? Of course not–some things are meant to be enjoyed, not crossed off a to-do list.

    I visit CIDU about 2-4 tiimes/week, and I start reading from the top. When I see a comic that interests me, I click on it to open in a new tab. I do that all the way down until I get to something I’ve seen before. Then I read the tabs. This site is *recreational* and I can’t comprehend shoehorning it into my daily workflow. This is the kind of site you check out on your coffee break or, like me, late at night after the kids are asleep. CIDU Bill has worked very hard over the years to provide something worth enjoying. If you can’t take the time to savor it, perhaps the problem isn’t with the site.

    Having said all that, do I get to complain a bit? I miss Crimeweek and Billo the Clown!

72. Cidu Bill Jun 10th 2009 at 09:24 pm 72

    Thanks for the kind words, Karen. I’m still careful to renew both crimeweek.com and billo.org each year, so they both could return. There’ll certainly be links on the CIDU site if they do.

73. BGneiss Jun 10th 2009 at 11:32 pm 73

    Bill - Thank you for all your hard work, and for putting up with all the whining (even if justified) and cussing (which could never be justified here in any case I can think of). You have been in my top 10 most visited websites for years, and I don’t know what I would do if you ever quit in disgust (which seems to be a trend among bloggers lately). Thanks for your copious patience and humor!

74. BGneiss Jun 10th 2009 at 11:45 pm 74

    By the way… tonight I’ve discovered that I know even less than I thought I did about RSS feeds (I’m apparently currently deep into the negative scale), but I’ve managed to somehow live a happy and productive life anyway. Maybe ignorance really is bliss.

75. Velvet74 Jun 14th 2009 at 12:04 pm 75

    I used Google Reader to follow along and then clicked through if there was one I didn’t understand and needed to see the comments to understand it.

    I also clicked through for the LOL’s because normally only the first 1 or 2 would show and I’d come to read the rest.

    But for a single comic that I understood I could just move on.

    But I’ll be removing it from my reader and this will be my last page view you will get.

76. PeterW Jun 14th 2009 at 01:52 pm 76

    Here’s the strength of RSS done right, and the reason why people are leaving in explosions of angst: it allows you to get a taste of an article and then decide if you want to see more or move on, allowing more time to impart readership to a number of blogs that wouldn’t get your attention if you had to read the whole thing. It’s all in one place, so you don’t have to open a dozen bookmarks. And it notifies you when there’s an update, so you don’t open those dozen bookmarks and find that only three of them have new content. Google Reader adds the feature of being out in the Cloud, so you can access from anywhere.

    From what I understand, the reason you’re upset about Google in particular is because they have the potential to profit from your work without paying for it. That’s valid; web news sources are driving journalistic publications out of business by copying their content and offering it for free or cheap.

    Then that argument was set aside as for why content creators should care, while the reason we should care is because “Google is probably using data mining, making You The Reader an unpaid employee.” Scary-scary privacy invasion! Data mining is how they support search, GMail, and just about everything else they do. The end result? Ads you’re more likely to be interested in.

    Question: would you rather have your time wasted by an ad for something you’re completely uninterested in, or one that informed you about products you could use in your daily activities? Caring about privacy is fine, but if you don’t share information that affects your relationships with people (read: you have nothing to hide), the end result is win-win.

    Another way data mining is used is to recommend feeds. As someone else noted above, this blog was recommended to me by Google. As also noted above, the comments are a big part of the content and an incentive to click through, so the people leaving in a huff are taking pageviews with them. You may not be able to see it with the forced clickthroughs of the new system, but it’s definitely an effect.

    Ultimately, the point I’m trying to make is that I believe a completely content-free RSS defeats a main part of the purpose of the technology, Google still isn’t evil, and I’m sticking around for now, but a future loss of interest may be hastened by the extra investment for the same content.

77. CIDU Bill Jun 14th 2009 at 02:03 pm 77

    Velvet74, my life is no longer worth living.

    Seriously, dude, storming out of here in high dudgeon is so last week.

78. CIDU Bill Jun 14th 2009 at 02:15 pm 78

    PeterW, people “leaving in explosions of angst” notwithstanding, the site has gotten more pageviews in the past week than it’s ever gotten before. Even the week when it was mentioned in the New York Times. Even the week when it was mentioned in Entertainment Weekly. Though to be fair, if it had been mentioned in the New York Times and Entertainment Weekly in the same week, I suppose the pageviews would have been higher.

    I digress. The key fact is that the “notifies you when there’s an update” feed is what I’d originally set up. The “show the whole post” apparently happened once the technology changed and aggregators chose to consider that the default. I simply went back into the program and re-set the option to what I’d intended in the first place.

79. ImaginaryLover Jun 28th 2009 at 07:38 pm 79

    As I use NewsFire for my RSS reader (and I am a bit new to the whole concept) I have no idea why so many people are upset about clicking through. I have a tiny little NewsFire window in the top right hand corner of my MacBook, and just glancing up there once in a while lets me see what’s new, and make a quick decision to read or delete. Of course, CIDU is NEVER just deleted. It’s a gotta-read! Thanks, Bill, for all the work you’ve done. Ever since I began reading comics (this would have been in the middle of the last century, with The Phantom, Dick Tracy, Gasoline Alley, Out Our Way, and so on, I love the discussion and the whole community overall. You have made my sixties complete. Gracias, amigo.

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