Sacrilegious Synchronicity
Cidu Bill on Nov 17th 2008
L.B. Wylie: I’m generally confused by how Christians seem to be one of the only groups of any sort (religious, ethnic, or otherwise) who are always fair game, and are flatly characterized as uptight and oversensitive and humorless if we don’t laugh at whatever jokes are made about us – especially when the majority of the “jokes”, which some could characterize as sacrilegious or heresy, come from those outside of the faith… Resorting to unprovoked cheap (and not even very funny) jokes about someone else’s savior seems to me to potentially be an even lower form of humor than puns. Humor based on pretty much anything else about a religion but the savior is fair game as far as I’m concerned, but – in a culture where the Braves mascot was deemed inexcusably offensive – I think Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc. deserve the same respect.
Filed in Bill Bickel, Far Left Side, Jesus Christ, Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal, Terminator, comic strips, comics, humor, synchronicity | 72 responses so far
fuzzmaster Nov 17th 2008 at 02:50 pm 1
It does make a difference who’s got the power. Christians — and I’m one — are the large majority in America. As such, anything about that religion is fair game. You’re welcome not to find it funny. As it happens, I don’t find either of these particularly humorous. But “Life of Brian?” Hilarious.
Jack Nov 17th 2008 at 03:28 pm 2
I wouldn’t say that Christians “have the power” in this country. True, the majority of Americans claim to be Christians in name…however, true Christian spirituality is not really a mainstream majority. More like a plurality, when compared to other religions, but as I look at the people around me in America, it seems to me that most people do not have a robust faith that plays an important part in their daily lives.
Perhaps it is best to respond to such cheap shots by simply ignoring them. If there’s one thing that most people hate, it is to be ignored, or thought irrelevant. Neither of these comics say anything reasonably intelligent enough for us to make a lengthy response to.
(Incidentally, I might argue that these comics prove that Christ is still relevant, else they wouldn’t be trying to make fun of Him. But I digress).
Rupert Nov 17th 2008 at 03:28 pm 3
L.B. : I think your comments illustrate why you are charterized as oversensitive and humorless. I don’t think you should make the generalization that all of the groups that you associate with are the same. Humor is in the eye of the beholder. I like the second one exept how did the terminator get glasses?
Nicole Nov 17th 2008 at 03:38 pm 4
I agree with FM — the reason Christians are often the target of jokes it because they are the majority and in power. The powerful have always been a target of satire and ridicule.
I would also add that there are SOME (underline the word some) Christians that beg to be ridiculed (Ted Haggard leaps to mind — though there are legion)
Finally there are SOME (again underline some) Christians who insist that the rest of us non Christians live by their ‘moral’ code. Again ….. reason for humor
Tim Nov 17th 2008 at 03:49 pm 5
Also because Jesus and the crucifixion is a cultural touchstone quite familiar to most non-Christians. And, well, frankly, Jesus is a lot funnier than most other central religious figures.
I nearly always find crucifixion jokes funny, but then again I’m a pastor’s kid, and we’re well known to be pure evil.
Elyrest Nov 17th 2008 at 03:50 pm 6
I was raised as a Christian and I feel that we live in a very Christian culture. Even if people don’t practice a particular faith the majority of Americans consistently cite themselves as Christians. So in the U.S. if you are going to use a religion for humor it will be Christianity. People make fun of things that are familiar to many people so that they will all be in on the laugh. That doesn’t mean that everyone finds it funny, but a lot of people do. Personally I think any god that can’t laugh at him/herself doesn’t rate high. Who invented humor?
DocBob Nov 17th 2008 at 04:12 pm 7
Jack,
Ignoring does no good and in fact makes it worse.
If the (fill in ethnic group here) had ignored it then they would not have the respect they do today. It seems that all groups (including gay/lesbians) have had there jokes pushed on in the name of political correctness but Christians have not. If we ignore and turn the other cheek, then it gets worse. If we do not, we are painted as intolerant.
We all saw what happened when a few cartoonist in Europe tried to make fun of Mohamed. Yet it is not done anymore. Why do we still do it to Jesus?
S.P. Charles Nov 17th 2008 at 04:18 pm 8
Because, um, Christians don’t show their disapproval of comic strips by burning down buildings and murdering people? This has proved to be an effective means of squelching comic strips, to be sure, but I’m not sure this is a method we want to encourage.
Blork Nov 17th 2008 at 04:25 pm 9
I’ve never liked the idea of ruling areas off-bounds to humour just because some people might find it offensive. Virtually every joke has the potential to offend someone - the vast majority of political cartoons could be offensive to those who support the policy being ridiculed, pot-shots at celebrities could offend their fans (or for that matter the celebrity themself).
My attitude to this kind of thing is that noone is forcing you to read the comics. If anyone genuinely finds these things offensive then stop reading SMBC and Far Left Side; you don’t have to see any more, but anyone who does can keep reading. Everybody’s happy.
Nicole Nov 17th 2008 at 04:37 pm 10
As an atheist, I listen to many atheist themed podcasts. Let me assure you that Islam takes as much and sometime more heat as Christianity does.
Christians not murdering people for differing beliefs/opinions is a RELATIVELY recent change in behavior. Remember the Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, and the Salem Witch trials.
More recently - while not in America there is the Lord’s Resistance Army - here is the Wiki entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord’s_Resistance_Army . Thomas Muthee who blessed Sarah Palin, persecuted and drove a woman out of an African village because he declared her a witch. Read the entry in Reverend Muthee’s wiki entry titled Mama Jane - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Muthee
L.B. Nov 17th 2008 at 05:02 pm 11
Rupert: “I don’t think you should make the generalization that all of the groups that you associate with are the same.”?
Huh? All of what groups are the same in what way? I’ve read and reread my original comments, and I have no idea what you’re talking about.
As for me being humorless… I’m not humorless at all, and I think I made it pretty clear that I’m not complaining about all humor about religion. I just think that a civilization by definition has boundaries of all sorts (from murder on down), and it’s strange to me that the Braves mascot is unacceptable, Sambo’s Restaurants had to be renamed, there have been loud protests on behalf of people who are obese, height-challenged, mentally challenged, mentally disturbed, ad infinitum - and the PC Police attack a new issue every day - yet Jesus et al aren’t offered the same consideration.
BTW - I’m fully aware that this is a free country and nobody is forcing me to read anything, and that I have the right not to look it anything. In general these 2 strips are funny/interesting enough for me to read regularly, and I’m not such a knee-jerk fanatic that I’d stop reading them over a few individual strips I find unfunny and/or offensive. I wasn’t screaming in protest, I was only asking a question.
Keera Nov 17th 2008 at 05:24 pm 12
L.B., maybe Christians aren’t offered the same consideration because they don’t need it. Me, I’ve always seen it as a sign of weakness if one can’t tolerate jokes about one’s own faith. Kind of like not being able to laugh at oneself.
anonymous@anonymous.net Nov 17th 2008 at 05:26 pm 13
if christians had “the power” they wouldn’t have to take this. try this same thing with other religions and see how quickly you can become dead. burning down buildings and murdering people might not be your cup of tea but its on their list of good deeds (yes they’re rewarded for those deeds) and it sure seems effective. so go ahead and hate christianity, say only bad things about it, work hard to get rid of it, forsake your american roots. there’s another religion that has a plan to move in and they’re not going to take your crap.
padraig Nov 17th 2008 at 05:42 pm 14
Oh yeah, I’ve NEVER heard jokes about Jews or Protestants.
It’s always, “Three Evangelistic Christians walk into a bar…”
L.B. Nov 17th 2008 at 05:54 pm 15
I’m not going to answer every individual comment regarding my lack of humor and/or tolerance, but in this free country of ours I am permitted to ask a question, to have personal boundaries of all sorts, and to find specific things unfunny and/or offensive. Call it a weakness if you like, but we’re all permitted to have different tastes, and different tastes don’t necessarily constitute a character flaw. Name-calling and making judgments about people based on one topic on one day doesn’t seem very constructive, or to serve really any purpose but for the writer to vent.
L.B. Nov 17th 2008 at 06:03 pm 16
OK, one LAST time… I’m not bothered by every single joke in the universe that involves religion in any way. In everything in the universe, there’s a whole range of good through bad - remember, you can’t live without water very long, but you can die in an even shorter time from drinking too much water.
dev Nov 17th 2008 at 06:10 pm 17
The first is fairly funny. I’d find the second one funnier, but some sketch show, probably MadTV, already did it. I think they called the movie “The Greatest Action Story Ever Told” or something like that.
(Oh, and don’t let my screen name fool you. I have the greatest respect for Christianity.)
Paul Nov 17th 2008 at 06:14 pm 18
That should say, “if they are upset when you make fun of…”
Irreverence is funny because it allows us to poke fun at how seriously people take themselves. “I’m a big important guy and I care about stuff!” Hilarious!
Mark in Boston Nov 17th 2008 at 06:21 pm 19
I personally think that if Jesus came back, he would not recognize modern Christianity as having much to do with anything he taught. For that matter he probably would not have approved of much of Paul’s work. Admittedly it can be hard to pin Jesus’ teachings down because of the way he keeps contradicting himself: you must adhere to the Law in all matters but you don’t have to keep Kosher; all of mankind is capable of following Jesus vs. only a select few are capable of following Jesus. Jesus taught and truly believed that the end of the secular world would come within a few decades of his time, and within the lifetime of some of his acquaintances.
A good reference on how Christianity has changed since Jesus’ time is the book “Jesus Through the Centuries” by Jaroslav Pelikan. Unfortunately it is weak on 19th- and 20th-century developments which are the most fascinating and relevant today.
Now for a REALLY funny (and well-informed) look at look at modern Christianity, get “The New Adventures of Jesus” by Frank Stack. In fact, read this first, THEN read “Jesus Through the Centuries”, then read “The New Adventures of Jesus” again.
Cedar Nov 17th 2008 at 06:31 pm 20
The majority of the US is absolutely Christian. I’ev heard numbers ranging from 75% - 80%
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/21/fyi/main2029400.shtml
http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/Demographics/map_demographics.htm
http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html
The fact that every president of the United States has not only been Christian, but aggressively, loudly so is proof of its power in this country.
(For the record, I find neither of those strips particularly funny)
BlueRaja Nov 17th 2008 at 06:40 pm 21
Rupert: (link)
Elyrest Nov 17th 2008 at 06:50 pm 22
L.B., I am assuming that you sent the two cartoons in with the attached comment (pardon if I am wrong).
You stated: “in this free country of ours I am permitted to ask a question”. It appears that people are answering your question, but you don’t appear to approve of their answers or the way they state them. “Personal boundaries” and being “permitted to have different tastes” don’t belong just to the questioner, but also to those who chose to respond. Christianity and religion don’t belong to any one person or group. People who joke in a manner you find sacrilegious may have a faith and belief than rivals or surpasses your own (not that there is a competition). You may be offended, but many may find these same images very helpful in their pursuit of Christianity in this modern world.
I am grateful that I live in a society that allows this to happen.
Eric Goebelbecker Nov 17th 2008 at 06:51 pm 23
Jack and Anonymous:
From 1993 - 2006 Republicans, largely put in power by appealing to Evangelicals controlled Congress. For 2 terms an outspoken Evangelical Christian occupied the White House and has effectively tipped the judiciary toward the Evangelical direction for a long time to come, regardless of what Obama has planned.
At the same time anyone who wants to get elected to any office has to at least make token noises about being a Christian.
And, let’s not forget that the outright lie that Obama is a Muslim was very effective, and the defense against was not that being a Muslim is OK…it was that he is a Christian.
Stop whining. Christians have and still do have a huge say in the direction this nation takes. Claiming minority status because you lose the occasional battle is going to stop working at some point - maybe it already did.
I’m just hoping that eventually you all decide to back someone who is marginally competent….please?
Capy Nov 17th 2008 at 06:57 pm 24
One thing to consider with humor is that the source matters. With a cartoon one doesn’t immediately know who is creating it, so one’s cultural assumptions come into play.
Personally, when I read both these cartoons, I assume that the author is probably American, and almost certainly raised in a Christian-centric culture (if not actively participating in the religion itself - e.g. I happen to be an atheist, but I was raised semi-Christian and am therefore aware of the protestant christian culture, traditions, and mythology in a way that I’m not aware of, say, Hindu culture). Because I assume that, I don’t find them offensive at all - it’s someone making fun of their own (and my own) culture. It’s not “hey, those guys over there, they suck”, it’s “hey, look at us, we’re kind of silly sometimes.”
L.B., when you look at these, who do you assume is drawing them?
As an aside, I do think it’s OK for someone to make fun of their own culture, no matter what that culture is. I don’t always find it funny, but there’s a difference between “not funny” and “offensive”. And while I won’t say it’s never OK to make fun of someone else’s culture - there are certainly times for it, though rare - the potential for offense is much greater.
Blarg Nov 17th 2008 at 07:27 pm 25
“He must have forgotten his safe word.”
-Emo Phillips
Lola Nov 17th 2008 at 07:38 pm 26
Nothing like a gathering of god lovers to bring out all the bile, eh?
This is the main problem with all religions… each fervently believes that they have the corner on the truth and everybody else can, well, just go to hell. The hypocrisy is especially notable with the Christians since their leader had very few rules and most of them were about tending to your own failings and not judging others until you were perfect (essentially never) and the rest were about treating everyone else with respect. If Christians were living like that, there wouldn’t be much to make fun of and even if you did, they wouldn’t judge, now would they.
eeyore19 Nov 17th 2008 at 08:41 pm 27
dev: “The Greatest Action Story Ever Told” was my first thought, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFrufPxjwX0
Spiritcatcher Nov 17th 2008 at 08:57 pm 28
Christianity makes such a wonderful target because of all the shoddyness in concept and the hypocrisy in handling this …
Catholic dogma fun fact : Incest is a-ok if you’re married before god. how did this come up ? someone asked what happened after Adam, Eve, and Cain, and that’s what the council came up with…
DocBob Nov 17th 2008 at 09:06 pm 29
Lola
>>>The hypocrisy is especially notable with the Christians since their leader had very few rules and most of them were about tending to your own failings and not judging others until you were perfect (essentially never) and the rest were about treating everyone else with respect.<<<
While what you say is true, I suggest you also remember a Jesus who made a whip and cleared the Temple because of what offended Him.
Stereotypes are no good, even in the name of religion.
heather Nov 17th 2008 at 11:46 pm 30
The problem that LB is trying to raise — and which I generally, actually, agree with — is that making fun of, and bias against, Christians and Christianity (”nothing like a gathering of god lovers to bring out the bile”) is considered socially acceptable and even a sign of rational intelligence (”Christianity makes such a wonderful target because of all the shoddyness in concept”).
Replace “god lovers” in the first quoted sentence with anything else, like “muslims” or “gays” or “blacks” or “women” even, and you get a statement that will be generally agreed to be very offensive.
Whether or not Christianity is “in power” in our society, it’s still a double standard. There is a stereotype amongst the general population, regardless of what the stats say, that Christians are mindless followers, right-wing nuts, intolerant idiots. Intelligent, rational people are not religious, is the (rather arrogant IMO) prevalent opinion.
But the stereotype is JUST as bad as the stereotype that muslims are radical jihadists, or that gays are flamboyant queens trying to wreck marriage, etc etc etc.
These same “rational” folks argue that Christians are ‘bad’ because they are intolerant. Therefore, these folks are preaching absolute tolerance, right? Except, you can’t tolerate Christians. It’s okay to be intolerant of THEM. Why? Because they’re intolerant. Um??
Whether or not Christianity is fair game for humour… whether or not other groups, ethnic or religious or whatever, should also be fair game for humour (”I’ve always seen it as a sign of weakness if one can’t tolerate jokes about one’s own faith” — replace “faith” with “gender” or “race” or whatever)… that could be a debate that stretches on for months or years. But in either case, it is the DOUBLE STANDARD that irks folks… that making demeaning jokes about jews is not kosher, man, we have to respect people’s faiths and their personal beliefs… but dissing those stupid Christians? Hey, that’s just fine!
And for the record, I found both those comics hilarious.
anonymous Nov 17th 2008 at 11:53 pm 31
there are many many elected officials who are not and never will be christian, no one has any problem with that. saying barack hussein obama is not muslim is an insult to the faith and heritage of his father, you should be more careful about insulting islam Eric Goebelbecker. many would say there is only one who can know what faith is in obama’s heart and only one who can judge him, i am not that one and neither are you. i’ve always backed someone very competent, what are you implying? because you don’t agree with me i back someone incompetent? you’re an arrogant ass. be that as it may, the president elect has promised to: surrender to al qaeda, meeting every one of their short term demands; release enemy prisoners back into their combat units so they can kill more of us; tell the world it’s okay to ignore any agreement they’ve made with us; pump millions of taxpayer dollars into handouts to liberal-biased media giants; destroy the energy utility industry; make gasoline available only to the privileged of his choosing; allow litigation against the police to send them into an even greater state of ineffectiveness against criminals; remove incentive for businesses to innovate and succeed; litigate the 2nd amendment into non-existence; disarm the population during a time of war, the only one in recent history when americans have been attacked on their own soil; remove incentive for growth, innovation, and excellence in the american health care market; turn the united states into just another third world socialist country; i could go on and on.
i don’t know if he’s competent, neither do you, no one does. but based on his agenda i sure as hell hope he’s not.
anonymous Nov 17th 2008 at 11:59 pm 32
for the record i think both comics are funny. i especially like the irony of the anti-creationist caption of the 2nd one.
LostInTarnation Nov 18th 2008 at 12:05 am 33
Capy, I think your comments are right on. While I’m an atheist, I was raised Christian, and still feel I’m sufficiently within the Christian milieu to joke about it and its contradicitions. Christianity has a deep social impact in the US, so it’s pretty hard to puncture social frailties without eventually toying with religion.
For what it’s worth, there are jokes about Unitarians, Muslims, scientologists, and just about everyone else. And let’s not forget that one of the most often-used phrases to describe compromising one’s values for political expediency — “Drinking the Kool Aid” — is an allusion to the People’s Temple mass murders.
And Muslims mock their own religion and religious figures, too. A reporter who had visited Iraq passed along a joke an Iraqi told him: There was this big-shot imam who was well-known, very powerful and had a big following. He would always drive around in a new black SUV. One day his vehicle is blown up by a bomb, and when some of his followers tried to gather the pieces of his body together for the funeral, the largest bit they recovered was his — um — member. They put it in a shoe box and took it to the imam’s house, where they told his wife the awful news. And the guy with the shoe box said, “And we need you to identify the body — unfortunately, this is most of what we found,” and he shows her the contents of the box. She looks in and she says “That’s not him. That’s his driver.”
David Starner Nov 18th 2008 at 12:37 am 34
In the US, there are very few elected officials who aren’t openly Christian. The last non-church-going president was Abraham Lincoln, some 140 years ago.
Part of the difference between Christians and the Native Americans is that the Christians slaughtered the Indians, forcibly removed them from their lands and tried to eradicate their culture. After this act of genocide, they are down to 1% of the population, their languages and cultures are dead and dying.
On the other hand, 75% of the population of the US identifies as Christian, and they have huge power, and use to push their agenda. No baseball team has a mascot that mocks, parodies, or stereotypes Christians; it’d be an easy way to go bankrupt. The difference between the Braves mascot and the hypothetical Christs mascot is that there aren’t enough Indians left to successfully boycott the first alone.
I would also point out that SMBC made a Jewish joke recently implying that they could execute people at will.
drdan Nov 18th 2008 at 12:49 am 35
dev
those Initials look familiar
are there 6 letters in each of your names
are you in chicago?
Winter Wallaby Nov 18th 2008 at 02:59 am 36
I would say, generally, (1) Because Christians have the bulk of the power in this country, jokes about Christians are not really the same as jokes about underrepresented minorities, but (2) That doesn’t mean that any offensive thing people want to say about Christians automatically becomes OK.
But everyone’s discussing only in generalities. What about these specific cartoons? Why are they offensive? I don’t see it. Take, for example, the FarLeftSide cartoon. It’s premise is that an evil computer would be evil by trying to prevent the death and resurrection of the Messiah. In other words, the fact that Jesus died for our sins is good. This seems complimentary to Christianity, rather than offensive.
L.B. Nov 18th 2008 at 07:58 am 37
Heather - Thanks, you get my point exactly!
Capy - I do know the religion of one of the artists, who is Jewish. I’m reminded of a former boss who was Jewish, whose favorite and only curse words in the office - shouted loudly on at least an hourly basis - were, “Jesus Christ!” It didn’t offend me, but at some point I got tired of hearing it so often (and loufly) and started to smilingly respond with, “Hey! Take the name of your OWN lord in vain!” He was actually grateful, because until I pointed it out he had no idea how often he cursed in the office.
Carl Nov 18th 2008 at 09:06 am 38
Contrary to #20, not all US Presidents have been Christians. Notably, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were Deists.
William Howard Taft was a Unitarian, which neither Catholics nor mainline Protestants consider “really” Christian. (Even the Christian Unitarians deny the Trinity.)
Powers Nov 18th 2008 at 09:16 am 39
Ahem.
There are two factors at work here.
First of all, satirizing a religion is not at all comparable to satirizing members of an ethnic or racial minority. Religion is a chosen trait, even if the choice was just to accept one’s parents’ religion and not investigate other options. That makes it fair game for criticism and satire, just like nationality or profession might be.
Second of all, Christianity is going to be satirized in the American media more often than any other religion simply because it is the most prevalent religion. The modern conceptualization of Jesus (Caucasian, long brown hair, beard, robes) is one of the most widely recognized figures in the United States. In the U.S., a cartoonist would have to put a name tag on Mohammad for anyone to recognize him, because the public is not as familiar with Muslim mythology as they are with Christian mythology.
Oh, and to L.B.: You wrote “jokes about someone else’s savior”. I thought Christians believe Jesus to be everyone’s savior.
Blork Nov 18th 2008 at 09:17 am 40
WW: “Take, for example, the FarLeftSide cartoon. It’s premise is that an evil computer would be evil by trying to prevent the death and resurrection of the Messiah.”
Totally irrelevant to the main discussion, but I had a completely different interpretation of the strip. “Come with me if you want to live” is the standard opening line for a good Terminator revealing itself to John Connor, and the caption suggests that SkyNet’s basic plan is still “kill John Connor’s ancestors”, just on a comically long timescale. Hence my impression was that SkyNet was responsible for trying to kill Jesus (a T-1000 impersonating Pontius Pilate, maybe) and the Terminator we see is trying to save him so that his great^80 grandson John Connor can be born. It’s like The Da Vinci Code: Good Version.
Hunt Nov 18th 2008 at 09:37 am 41
I would just like to point out that people are naturally sensitive to mockery of things that are important to them, and especially things that are holy to them. For Christians, jokes about Jesus (especially Jesus on the cross) are like this. When I see a cartoon like this, it makes me feel bad, sort of how it would make me feel if somebody spat on my grandma. I can imagine that a lot of people would feel the same way about cartoons making fun of Martin Luther King, or the Holocaust, or Mohammed, or even the American flag. If you don’t share the sense of importance, then it may be hard to understand why the other person can’t just “take a joke.”
MQ Nov 18th 2008 at 11:19 am 42
Jokes about the Biblical narrative are common in this culture because that narrative resides deeply in our cultural literacy. Jokes about Shakespeare narratives are common for the same reason–but less so, because that canon’s penetration into our cultural literacy is less pervasive.
Though such jokes are common because they also benefit from a frisson of naughtiness–you’re not supposed to make fun of what’s important, serious, or powerful, and so doing so carries a (sometimes cheap) thrill–they have very little to do with actually criticizing the content of Christian theology or the behavior of Christian followers. Such earnest–and sometimes angry–critiques may indeed be commoner here than critiques of other faiths, and maybe that commonness is for some of the same reasons, but otherwise the two phenomena have very little to do with each other, starting with their radically different tones and intentions.
Paul Nov 18th 2008 at 01:15 pm 43
“Replace ‘god lovers’ in the first quoted sentence with anything else, like ‘muslims’ or ‘gays’ or ‘blacks’ or ‘women’ even, and you get a statement that will be generally agreed to be very offensive.”
There’s a big difference between being gay/black/woman and something that’s a choice you make.
The difference with Christian vs. Muslim in this country is, as already noted, the difference between the dominant religion and a minority one.
“Whether or not Christianity is “in power” in our society, it’s still a double standard.”
Bullshit. Context matters.
Some guy in MN Nov 18th 2008 at 02:18 pm 44
I think part of the problem is that the christians that feel like “rational” people like me don’t “tolerate” them is that they conflate “tolerance” and “respect”.
I tolerate what goes on in the churches around me. I may not respect it personally, but I don’t walk into their churches and try to mold them to suit my worldview.
The “bad” christians, on the other hand, DO walk into my public sphere and try to mold it to fit their worldview. They then characterize my pushback against that unwanted incursion as “intolerance”.
As an example, I recently wrote a letter to my public high school principal pointing out that it was inappropriate in my view for a public high-school choir concert [not even the “holiday” concert] to consist of 90% christian music. I didn’t write that letter because I want the choir director to stop being a christian. I just want him to stop forcing my daughter to sing programs consisting predominantly of songs of christian praise. It is not intolerant of me to suggest he should leave his religious life out of his public school position.
Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^) Nov 18th 2008 at 03:01 pm 45
Heather - I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said and have been arguing that for years. I am a Christian and actually thought the first comic was hilarious, and the second one would have been funny but it’s been done before, in a better way, by MadTv (one of my favorite sketches from that show).
I’m not saying you should never make jokes about religion, I just wish people thought a bit more about why they do so. The fact is, people make fun of Christians because we’re “different.” We’re “them.” Christians do the same things to other groups, which I believe is wrong and is against the teachings of Christ. People claim and like to think that making fun of Christians (in a mean-spirited way) somehow makes them enlightened or more intelligent, but the fact is it’s just as bigoted as Christians making fun of gay people or another group that is seen as “different.” You might refuse to believe that because it paints your actions in a negative light, but it’s true.
Having said that, I don’t think the comics in this post are mean-spirited. I think they are just giving a spin to a historical and well-known story (the crucifixion of Christ) by applying it to modern American culture. It’s not bashing religion or Jesus in any way. The first comic is not saying, “JESUS WAS A DRUNK AND DIDN’T WANT TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AND CHRISTIANS ARE MORONS.” It’s just saying, “What if this happened?” You’re not supposed to take it seriously.
The only thing that irritates me is when people get mean-spirited about religion as a way to make them feel better about themselves and who they are. You can boost your own self-esteem without demeaning others. That is what “enlightened” people should do.
Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^) Nov 18th 2008 at 03:03 pm 46
@Some guy in MN - I agree with you on the choir thing, but as someone who went through the whole choir process often the reason choir teachers do this is because 1) there is a HUGE amount of Christian music developed for choirs and a much smaller amount of secular music, and 2) Often teachers wish to educate the members of the choir on the history of music, the classics, etc, which were predominantly Christian. I got sick of singing Christian music in choir simply because it was mostly boring, but they didn’t sing about much else in the 16th century.
cicely Nov 18th 2008 at 03:23 pm 47
L.B. @ 11:
L.B., this one is actually very easy; there is a difference between voluntary participation in a group, as for instance in the case of a religion or club (referencing Mason jokes), and involutary participation in a group, for instance race, sex, physical disability or national origin. You could choose to stop being a Christian, though you might not find it very desirable to do so, but you can’t choose the genes you were born with or the place of your birth.
(Not having ever posted here before, it’ll be interesting to see if my blockquoting and italicising work as intended. Oh, and by the way…I enjoy your website, and check in every workday. Keep it up!)
Michael Nov 18th 2008 at 03:31 pm 48
@Anonymous #31 — Wow, months worth of Fox News crammed into one post. I’m impressed!
Actually, what you wrote is really funny. There’s a lot of humor to be found in taking exaggerations to absurd extremes where there’s no longer a connection to reality. Great work.
acsenray Nov 18th 2008 at 03:32 pm 49
I wonder whether L.B. Wylie has noticed that neither of these cartoons actually make fun of Christ or Christianity.
Charlene Nov 18th 2008 at 07:04 pm 50
Christians also quite commonly equate Christian with “good”. As in “I used to be a drinker and a drug addict, but now I’m a CHRISTIAN!!!” Stop it.
It also gets really annoying when you are accused of “discrimination” because you don’t put Christians first and agree with them that they’re smarter, better, and superior to everyone else in every way. Somehow standing up for yourself becomes being discriminatory towards Christians.
Charlene Nov 18th 2008 at 07:07 pm 51
“L.B., this one is actually very easy; there is a difference between voluntary participation in a group, as for instance in the case of a religion or club (referencing Mason jokes), and involutary participation in a group, for instance race, sex, physical disability or national origin. You could choose to stop being a Christian, though you might not find it very desirable to do so, but you can’t choose the genes you were born with or the place of your birth.”
And this is why so many conservative Christians refuse to believe that gays and lesbians are born that way. It makes it acceptable to discriminate against them or to call equal treatment “special treatment”. They will away thousands of scientific studies and hundreds of pieces of hard evidence because it doesn’t suit their wish to have someone to discriminate against; it’s much easier to whine about “lifestyle” than to accept the fact that certain things are innate and discriminating against them is in fact bigotry.
eeyore19 Nov 18th 2008 at 08:24 pm 52
It’s also interesting to note that the Terminator movie was at least partly patterned on Christianity (a woman is impregnated by a person from outside of our reality to give birth to the saviour of mankind with the initials J.C.).
And like others have mentioned, just because a joke is being made *about* a religion doesn’t necessarily mean that the religion in question is being bashed. Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” wasn’t negative towards the teachings of Jesus. Instead, it was a humorous look at the way some people choose to express their faith, and how some people blindly follow the wrong messiahs without question (even as that “messiah” is trying to tell them that he’s *not* their messiah).
The ONION has some great examples of finding the humor in religion (”God Diagnosed With Bipolar Disorder”, “Universe Ends as God Wakes Up Next to Suzanne Pleshette”, etc.).
L.B. Nov 18th 2008 at 10:59 pm 53
I don’t necessarily think that someone can always just choose not to be a Chrsitian, or any other religion. Maybe some people do just wake up one day and decide to be Christian, but most people I know can cite the exact happening that triggered it and/or the exact instant it happened. Whether you think faith is a spiritual change or something triggered by obtuse chemical reactions in your brain, getting it or losing it is not necessarily a choice.
By the way… it is eye-opening and a tad disturbing to see some of the extremely negative characterizations of Christians that have been expressed here. I hope people remember that there are all extremes of people and beliefs within every group, and Christians are not all fundamentalist, hating discriminators who think everyone who doesn’t agree with them is going to burn in hell. It’s a shame that some people seem to forget that perfectly nice people may just happen to worship the same god as certain loud jerks - especially when they may belong to an entirely different sect that shares nothing else in common. The jokes/parody in these comics are a lot less scary than some of the derision expressed by other posters here.
Winter Wallaby Nov 19th 2008 at 01:48 am 54
I think it’s interesting that the two most coherent posts (from heather and Howabominable) objecting to anti-Christian bigotry both say that they they find the cartoons funny. I agree that anti-Christian bigotry is bad, but I find it a little frustrating that we’re 53 posts into this, and I have yet to see any explanation as to why these cartoons are offensive. It’s not that I’ve seen explanations I disagree with, it’s that no one has even tried. Generally, if I think something is offensive, and there’s an argument about it, I explain why I think it’s offensive, I don’t just complain that everyone thinks it’s OK to be offensive. (L.B., I can explain why the Braves mascot is offensive, if you want.)
Powers, cicely, Charlene, I don’t think that just because people “choose” their religion means that it’s totally OK to attack them for their beliefs. Or is it OK to hate on Jews and atheists for “choosing” not to accept Jesus?
Blork Nov 19th 2008 at 08:46 am 55
Is it OK to “attack” or “hate” them? No, and I don’t think anyone so far has said otherwise. Is it OK to make jokes or criticise? Yes, to exactly the same extent that we should be able to joke about/criticise someone’s political views or their taste in music.
That distinction is what gets people annoyed, when religion’s +5 Armour of Political Correctness means that simply mentioning a religion in anything but the most reverential tones leads to accusations of bigotry.
Powers Nov 19th 2008 at 08:57 am 56
Yes, I never said it was okay to hate anyone, Winter. I would hate to think I spent so much time on my post and that’s what people got out of it.
L.B. Nov 19th 2008 at 09:44 am 57
Argh, one last post. I don’t think I said anywhere that I found these comics offensive, although I may have said that I’m offended that Christians are fair game for anything that anyone wants to say about them.
That said, I don’t think that I need to explain why someone might think it was sacrilegious to imply that Jesus only ended up on the cross because he was an out-of-control binge drinker, and that the Bible was lying about the last days of his life. The terminator one is a lot milder (and a lot funnier to me), but I really do think it’s not a stretch to understand that some people just might be offended by the juxtaposition of the Terminator into the most holy and iconic of Christian images.
If you aren’t religious, then there’s no way I can explain to you how important and sacred certain things are to those that are. Personally, I’m perplexed and even amused by plenty of things when I’m in a service at a Catholic church or synagogue, but I don’t feel the need to openly mock them, because I believe to each his own, and I respect anyone who lives their life in a better way because of any credo. This is still a free country, and who am I to try to convert everyone to my exact way of thinking?
acsenray Nov 19th 2008 at 02:03 pm 58
I don’t accept any of the premises of H.B.’s original comment. First of all, our society gives too much respect and deference to religious beliefs. Essentially, a religious belief is a belief held despite the absence of any empirical evidence. It is, literally speaking, an irrational or unreasonable belief. However, when it comes to actual important societal interactions, such as employment, business, professional interactions, and politics, people who fail to show due deference to expressions of religious belief are subject to the threat of social punishment.
So far as the popular culture is concerned, it’s only in entertainment that religion gets less than kid glove treatment. And, really, the type of treatment that is usually at issue is very benign.
By taking the view that the anti-cartoon Muslims and H.B. have taken is to tell the world — I ascribe to these unreasonable beliefs and anyone who says anything that in any way implies that any of them might not be 100 percent literally true is offensive. This is not a position that deserves any respect in a free society.
H.B.: “That said, I don’t think that I need to explain why someone might think it was sacrilegious to imply that Jesus only ended up on the cross because he was an out-of-control binge drinker, and that the Bible was lying about the last days of his life. The terminator one is a lot milder (and a lot funnier to me), but I really do think it’s not a stretch to understand that some people just might be offended by the juxtaposition of the Terminator into the most holy and iconic of Christian images.”
It’s a mistake to think that it’s a “religious believer vs. non-religious believer” issue here. My guess is that the vast majority of the people who will read and find these two cartoons funny will actually be Christians of some kind. Yes, there will be some number of ultra-sensitive Christians who might take offense in the manner described in the above quotation, but it’s a minority.
Take an analytical look at the cartoons. Neither of them deny any facet of Christian belief. They don’t, in fact, say that the Bible is lying about the circumstances of Jesus’s death. They’re offering a very lightly humorous “what if?” proposition. Indeed, the underlying assumption of both the cartoons is that the reader is aware of an understands some of the basic beliefs of Christianity, and, indeed, accepts them as being true. That is, in fact, exactly the basis of the humour. The cartoons are not, in essence, saying. “I hate Christianity and here’s how I show my disrespect for it.” They are saying, “Hey, we know what really happened there, but isn’t it funny to imagine (1) something really mundane and kind of contemporary, or (2) something really wild from a popular sci-fi movie?” In fact, the second scenario posits Jesus as a possible hero in a well-liked action movie.
Jack Nov 19th 2008 at 02:38 pm 59
I am not really claiming status as a persecuted minority, or any such, I’m just stating what I see. I like straightforward explanations, and I’m not into hype. What I see is not a whole lot of Christianity in the mainstream culture. True, there is a sizable “Christian/evangelical subculture”, but it is only a sizable plurality (perhaps) but not a majority. Most of the programming that is on television, most of the movies that come out in this country, most of the books that are published, and many of the moral attitudes held by the majority of individuals in are decidedly secular and have little to do with Christianity, and in fact people espouse anti-Christian values in some aspects of their lives. (Note that I’m not calling anyone “evil” or any such thing. I’m just saying that all their values do not line up with what is taught in scripture, even though some of their values may be good). That’s my opinion, for what it’s worth, and I could be wrong. I have my own private reasons for coming to this conclusion, most of which involve quite a bit of Biblical exegesis and some moral extrapolations which are much too involved for a website discussing difficult to understand comic strips. My point is that there is a difference between nominal affiliation and true commitment. To quote my own grandfather, “There’s some people who say they’re Christians who are no more Christians than I am a jet-airplane pilot.” (And he is decidedly not a jet-airplaine pilot).
Jack Nov 19th 2008 at 03:10 pm 60
Winter Wallaby
Re: Why these comics are offensive to Christians
1. They make light of something that is inherently tragic. Jesus Christ was a (truly) innocent person who was wantonly killed by the Romans in a painful and gruesome fashion. This is a tragedy. The sort of humor in these strips is offensive to Christians for similar reason that humor about molesting or torturing little children would be offensive to most people…because such things are monstrous tragedies that cannot and should not be made light of.
2. Jesus Christ is not a distant historical figure, but is a personal reality to millions of Christians around the world who love Him. To make a humorous joke about His quite painful death is highly offensive. If you don’t see why, perform the following mental exercise: Imagine that someone you are closest to (whether a son/daughter, mother/father, or spouse, etc.) died a very excruciating death while in the act of performing a heroic act. Imagine that after the death you saw a comic strip trying to derive humor from the circumstances around that person’s death. How would you feel? How would you feel if that heroic act had involved saving your own life, or the life of someone in your family (And if you are not bothered by such a scenario, at least try to imagine how you think most people would feel)?
Empathy is the key to understanding issues like this, I think. I, for example, am not a Muslim. However, I do not particularly like the comic strips which portray the prophet Muhammad as being evil…the reason that I do not is because I think that the main intent of these strips is to be mean and to make fun of what others hold dear. This is not consistent with an attitude of love or Christ-likeness. I cannot claim to love my neighbor while at the same time behave in a thoughtless way toward him/her. It is one thing to point out the truth to someone in a thoughtful way (even if that involves stating that you believe that someone’s beliefs are false)…it is quite another to make fun of or belittle that person’s beliefs.
acsenray Nov 19th 2008 at 04:54 pm 61
“My point is that there is a difference between nominal affiliation and true commitment. To quote my own grandfather, ‘There’s some people who say they’re Christians who are no more Christians than I am a jet-airplane pilot.’”
Unless the body of people calling themselves Christians got together and assigned you to come up with a definition of “Christian,” then, yes, this might be your opinion, but so what? Each Christian gets to decide for himself or herself what being a Christian means, and it’s their collective decisions that manifest as “Christian” culture or society. One guy standing in a corner with an annotated Bible saying “But see here, this is what it really means!” isn’t really relevant.
“Why these comics are offensive to Christians”
Again, you’re conflating “some Christians” or “this particular Christian” with “all Christians.”
“1. They make light of something that is inherently tragic.”
Tragedy is the basis of comedy. I’m not kidding about that. It’s basic human nature.
“2. Jesus Christ is not a distant historical figure”
Can you see the difference between –
1. You are insulting dark-skinned persons. I am a dark-skinned person.
2. You are not insulting me, but you’re saying something that might, if you looked at it a particular way, might be a little bit less than entirely respectful and reverent to my invisible friend.
The second is way too attenuated. It’s one thing to say “Hey, you Christian! You’re an idiot for being a Christian!” That’s an insult. It’s another thing to make a joke that implies that you don’t entirely completely buy into the tenets of someone else’s belief. You, as a believer, have to accept that not everyone — in fact, most people — even if they call themselves a member of your same religious group, don’t buy into and actually might disagree with your beliefs. Expressing disagreement — or even ridiculing — a BELIEF, especially one that is not supported by empirical facts is not the same thing as making fun of a PERSON.
“I think. I, for example, am not a Muslim. However, I do not particularly like the comic strips which portray the prophet Muhammad as being evil…the reason that I do not is because I think that the main intent of these strips is to be mean and to make fun of what others hold dear.”
I have no sympathy for the people who rioted in reaction to the Muhammad cartoons. If you’re sincere in your beliefs, then it really shouldn’t affect you at all. Being so sensitive says more about you then the people drawing cartoons. If you can be upset by something so trivial, then look inward, my friend.
“This is not consistent with an attitude of love or Christ-likeness. I cannot claim to love my neighbor while at the same time behave in a thoughtless way toward him/her.”
Living in a diverse, multiethnic, international society means you have to get used to people who live by standards other than what you view as your personal ideal. We no longer live in a world in which you can expect everyone in the world to tiptoe around every single person’s individual imaginary friends. If you’re going to insist on having an imaginary friend, you need to grow a thicker skin about it. The Muslims damn well have to learn it and none of us should be tutoring us to live by their standards.
Winter Wallaby Nov 20th 2008 at 02:31 am 62
Bill, is this a record for longest thread? Between this post, and the “Is it racist to vote for Obama because he’s black” thread, I feel like you’re aiming for some longest thread prize.
CIDU Bill Nov 20th 2008 at 02:35 am 63
Moi? All I do is post the comics. You guys supply the interesting comments.
Elyrest Nov 20th 2008 at 01:34 pm 64
Bill, that’s now politics and religion. You need to post a really good comic about sex and we can hit the trifecta of subjects that my mother always told me should be avoided in polite company.
todd Nov 20th 2008 at 05:58 pm 65
Most of the cartoons I’ve seen from these two series tend to suggest that the author’s have one goal in mind, and that’s to offend as many people as possible. Particularly people of the right-wing persuasion. (Otherwise, the one wouldn’t be called The Far Left Side.)
However, these two particular cartoons don’t offend me. The SMBC one is just too lame to be offensive. The Left Side is kind of humorous, although I don’t understand why Arnold is completely naked, except for the glasses. But I’ve never seen the movies, since I believe they’re bloodier than I would like.
Jack Nov 20th 2008 at 08:23 pm 66
acs, just a few points in response:
* I agree that the difference between true and nominal Christianity might be ambiguous. That does not mean that we are forbidden from offering opinions, and I was simply offering mine, just as others offered theirs.
* I was only offering an explanation of why Christians get offended at such comics, I was not offering a detailed description of my personal thoughts about the comics, or otherwise making any sort of political case for banning such comics, etc.
* There are tragedies, and there are tragedies. Of course we find something humorous in a comic strip character’s woes. But there are certain events (see the examples that I gave) that many people just don’t find funny, period. You used the word “trivial,” which is a pretty subjective word. I think many people would find it hard to believe how it could be trivial to make fun of the Savior as He died for the sins of the world, if it indeed really happened as it is described in the New Testament.
* I understand you explanation regarding the difference in criticizing beliefs vs. criticizing a person. However, I still believe my analogy stands. Think, for example, of a hypothetical family whose son died in war. There were two different stories circulating about the son’s death; one was that he was killed by hostile fire crossing enemy lines to save an injured comrade, and the other was that he died while clearing a weapons jam that resulted because he hadn’t kept his rifle cleaned properly. The family may (for obvious reasons) choose to accept the former view, and other people may accept the latter view. It would be one thing to publish a periodical analyzing the evidence and explaining that the family’s opinion is not well-established; it would be quite another to publish a comic strip which made fun of the circumstances regarding the son’s death.
Anyhow, I hope I have cleared the waters a little; once you remove the religious element from belief, it is maybe a little easier to see how some things are offensive to some people.
* I agree that the fanatical Muslims’ reaction to the Muhammad comics was abominable, however, I think that they were still mean for the comic writer to publish.
*Thanks for your comments, acs, and thanks to everyone else for a lively discussion. Once again, I hope my comments have been of use.
-jd
Winter Wallaby Nov 21st 2008 at 02:16 am 67
Oh! Oh! I have a explanation about the comics. Or is that not allowed in this thread? Todd, Arnold is completely naked because in the Terminator movies, when you send someone back in time, you can only send back flesh, or flesh-covered objects. He still has his glasses, though (in the comic, not in the movie), because otherwise we wouldn’t understand who he was supposed to be.
The “Christian” comments in this thread seem to fall into two types. Comments from Heather and HowAbominable (who both like the cartoons) want non-Christians to be respectful towards Christian people, which I think it pretty reasonable. L.B. and Jack want non-Christians to be respectful towards Christian doctrine, which I think is not so reasonable, particularly when playful, non-rude, silliness is interpreted as disrespectful.
Matthew Nov 21st 2008 at 05:02 am 68
All religions are made fun of & are fair game for lampooning. American cartoonists will lampoon Christianity more often, because it is the most prevalent religion in America. Thus, its symbols are a quick shorthand, and some of its dogmas known by the vast majority of Americans. Cracking wise about Mahayana vs. Theravada Buddhism, say, won’t be funny for most Americans.
cicely Nov 21st 2008 at 12:36 pm 69
L.B. @ 53:
L.B., religion is a choice; most people choose to stay with the religion of the environment they were raised in (cultural features in general have a certain amount of inertia), but again, it is a choice, whether conscious or not. If it wasn’t a choice, there would never, ever be any point in trying to “convert” anyone to a different relgion, any more than you can “convert” anyone from being short, or a hemophiliac (both of which would get a lot of takers!). As I said, you could change your religion, but might not consider that to be very desirable.
Which “light” you wake up to when/if you have a spiritual awakening depends on what environment you are in; raised surrounded by Muslims and with no other religious offerings on the “menu”, you aren’t real likely to wake up and see the “light” of Apollo, for instance. Again, this what missionary work and conversion attempts are all about; to inject your “light”, whatever it might be (usually by definition The Truth), into a foreign environment, where you hope your proposed converts will take it up in preference to whatever else is on the local “menu”.
Collin Nov 23rd 2008 at 02:10 pm 70
I think this argument is unnecessary. Those who find it offensive will find it offensive. Those who do not, will not. The line between offensive humor and non-offensive humor is blurred.
For the case of online comics as a potentially offensive material, I would suggest those who find it offensive to merely change what websites they visit.
Cidu Bill Nov 23rd 2008 at 02:32 pm 71
The original comment was not whether the comics are offensive — that’s usually subjective anyway — but whether the standards of general acceptability are different regarding Christians.
Elyrest Nov 23rd 2008 at 04:04 pm 72
Ah, Bill. Your last comment together with Collin’s may have the answer.
The standards of general acceptability are different regarding Christianity to those who think that religious beliefs are off limits when it comes to humor. People who feel that religion (i.e. Christianity) is no different than any other subject when it comes to humor will most likely feel that the standards are the same. I don’t think it matters which side of the argument you belong to whether you find these particular comics funny. Humor sometimes knows no bounds.