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	<title>Comments on: Find the Fallacy</title>
	<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/</link>
	<description>JFK: ''we choose to go to the ...''</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 12:25:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Count Shrimpula</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6422</link>
		<dc:creator>Count Shrimpula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6422</guid>
		<description>More than that, DPWally, they actually make a full imaged backup of everything that's on the drive, seal that one up, and then do the forensics on the copied drive. That way if something gets screwed up, or if the defense tries to say they planted the info on the drive, they still have the pristine original there to prove they didn't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More than that, DPWally, they actually make a full imaged backup of everything that&#8217;s on the drive, seal that one up, and then do the forensics on the copied drive. That way if something gets screwed up, or if the defense tries to say they planted the info on the drive, they still have the pristine original there to prove they didn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: DPWally</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6421</link>
		<dc:creator>DPWally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6421</guid>
		<description>Apparently I didn't read the last 5 entries before writing mine.

A computer in normal use deletes and overwrites files, especially temporary files like browser caches, so you don't investigate by logging in and reading files.  You can copy non-deleted files to a USB drive, but that doesn't help much either.  It's the deleted stuff they want.

The best method is to shut it down immediately, before the OS or another user can make any more changes, then remove the disk and do forensic analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently I didn&#8217;t read the last 5 entries before writing mine.</p>
<p>A computer in normal use deletes and overwrites files, especially temporary files like browser caches, so you don&#8217;t investigate by logging in and reading files.  You can copy non-deleted files to a USB drive, but that doesn&#8217;t help much either.  It&#8217;s the deleted stuff they want.</p>
<p>The best method is to shut it down immediately, before the OS or another user can make any more changes, then remove the disk and do forensic analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: DPWally</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6420</link>
		<dc:creator>DPWally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6420</guid>
		<description>Since there was some confusion on this point...

They already knew about the changes to her Myspace profile.  They believed she made the changes from a computer in the library.  So they were looking for evidence she was in the library, what time she was there, plus anything else she did while on the computer.  Anything else that would give clues to where she went and why.  Browser caches keep all kinds of stuff, and computer forensics can find lots of info that has been erased and overwritten.

I assume it didn't take long to get a warrant for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since there was some confusion on this point&#8230;</p>
<p>They already knew about the changes to her Myspace profile.  They believed she made the changes from a computer in the library.  So they were looking for evidence she was in the library, what time she was there, plus anything else she did while on the computer.  Anything else that would give clues to where she went and why.  Browser caches keep all kinds of stuff, and computer forensics can find lots of info that has been erased and overwritten.</p>
<p>I assume it didn&#8217;t take long to get a warrant for that.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Brady</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6412</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Brady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6412</guid>
		<description>They most certainly did not need to seize the computers. Any data available on those machines, whether on the active registry or deleted, could be preserved simply by replicating the hard drive. Any competent technician could do this armed with nothing but a $100 USB drive. The police overreacted because they didn't know what they were doing, and so their instinct was just to grab everything and sort it out later. How many months would it have been, I wonder, before the library got their computers back?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They most certainly did not need to seize the computers. Any data available on those machines, whether on the active registry or deleted, could be preserved simply by replicating the hard drive. Any competent technician could do this armed with nothing but a $100 USB drive. The police overreacted because they didn&#8217;t know what they were doing, and so their instinct was just to grab everything and sort it out later. How many months would it have been, I wonder, before the library got their computers back?</p>
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		<title>By: Powers</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6406</link>
		<dc:creator>Powers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6406</guid>
		<description>Lola: They needed to seize the physical computers.  First, they don't know which computer(s) the girl used.  Even if there was a log handy, there's always the possibility that she signed one log but ended up switching to a different computer.  Best to cover all the bases.  Second, it's not just a matter of doing a file search on each computer; technicians have specialized tools to search through all the data on a hard drive, even files that may have been deleted.  They need the computers in a lab to do a thorough search.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lola: They needed to seize the physical computers.  First, they don&#8217;t know which computer(s) the girl used.  Even if there was a log handy, there&#8217;s always the possibility that she signed one log but ended up switching to a different computer.  Best to cover all the bases.  Second, it&#8217;s not just a matter of doing a file search on each computer; technicians have specialized tools to search through all the data on a hard drive, even files that may have been deleted.  They need the computers in a lab to do a thorough search.</p>
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		<title>By: Trish</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6386</link>
		<dc:creator>Trish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6386</guid>
		<description>There is actually an easy solution for the library to use in the future to prevent this situation. The college I went to had a special drive armor on every computer. When the computer was rebooted, the hard drive erased and reset to a new install. We never had any problems with viruses or patron installing programs they should not or downloaded games or anything. If a patron wanted to save a file, they had to use FTP or a disk or a USB stick or something. NOTHING was saved on the local drive or the network drive. 

This way, we were never plagued with viruses or problems, and no warrant would ever matter. All a patron had to do was reboot before they walked away. If somebody showed up with a warrant (and they did at least once when I was there) all they would get are the sign in logs of who used the lab. There wasn't even a log as to who used which computer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is actually an easy solution for the library to use in the future to prevent this situation. The college I went to had a special drive armor on every computer. When the computer was rebooted, the hard drive erased and reset to a new install. We never had any problems with viruses or patron installing programs they should not or downloaded games or anything. If a patron wanted to save a file, they had to use FTP or a disk or a USB stick or something. NOTHING was saved on the local drive or the network drive. </p>
<p>This way, we were never plagued with viruses or problems, and no warrant would ever matter. All a patron had to do was reboot before they walked away. If somebody showed up with a warrant (and they did at least once when I was there) all they would get are the sign in logs of who used the lab. There wasn&#8217;t even a log as to who used which computer.</p>
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		<title>By: arvy</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6385</link>
		<dc:creator>arvy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6385</guid>
		<description>Tom T: If a patron is viewing porn, a librarian would be within his/her rights to ask the patron to stop, since the computer screen could be viewed by others.  But this is far different from reporting that information to government authorities.  You have no evidence to support the notion that they would ask a patron to cease visiting white supremecist pages  (you've added another logical fallacy to the discussion by essentially calling them hypocrites for potential contradictory actions that you invented).

For those who suggested that the cops should have used the machines as patrons, there are numerous potential problems with this.  First, Library conputers generally have very high security levels; one patron cannot generally view the browsing history of another (if the references to coming across another user's already logged in e-mail are related to library computers then I guess this isn't universal, but I'm guessing such lapses are the exception)  Second, all the libraries around here have limits of one hour and restrictions about use by people without library cards.  This would make it very difficult for police to find anything useful, especially if other patrons were waiting.

I think readers should hold off on their knee-jerk reactions and recognize that a)this case is a little more complex than some responders are acknowledging, and b) in the heat of the moment people often respond emotionally rather than logically thinking through all the possible long-term implications of their immediate actions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom T: If a patron is viewing porn, a librarian would be within his/her rights to ask the patron to stop, since the computer screen could be viewed by others.  But this is far different from reporting that information to government authorities.  You have no evidence to support the notion that they would ask a patron to cease visiting white supremecist pages  (you&#8217;ve added another logical fallacy to the discussion by essentially calling them hypocrites for potential contradictory actions that you invented).</p>
<p>For those who suggested that the cops should have used the machines as patrons, there are numerous potential problems with this.  First, Library conputers generally have very high security levels; one patron cannot generally view the browsing history of another (if the references to coming across another user&#8217;s already logged in e-mail are related to library computers then I guess this isn&#8217;t universal, but I&#8217;m guessing such lapses are the exception)  Second, all the libraries around here have limits of one hour and restrictions about use by people without library cards.  This would make it very difficult for police to find anything useful, especially if other patrons were waiting.</p>
<p>I think readers should hold off on their knee-jerk reactions and recognize that a)this case is a little more complex than some responders are acknowledging, and b) in the heat of the moment people often respond emotionally rather than logically thinking through all the possible long-term implications of their immediate actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Lola</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6384</link>
		<dc:creator>Lola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6384</guid>
		<description>So here's question.  Why did they want to sieze all of the computers? Surely the girl wasn't going from computer to computer in one session.  And another.  Why not just behave like patrons and access the computers and do their search? They are public access and there is nothing to prevent anybody, police included, from going on and looking at the history.  Kind of like trash at the curb and probably just as legal as an exigent no warrant enter and search anyway. It wasn't clear in the article, was the girl already deceased at the time?  If not, were I the librarian, though I'd know I'd done the right thing, it would give me nightmares for as long as I still had dreams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So here&#8217;s question.  Why did they want to sieze all of the computers? Surely the girl wasn&#8217;t going from computer to computer in one session.  And another.  Why not just behave like patrons and access the computers and do their search? They are public access and there is nothing to prevent anybody, police included, from going on and looking at the history.  Kind of like trash at the curb and probably just as legal as an exigent no warrant enter and search anyway. It wasn&#8217;t clear in the article, was the girl already deceased at the time?  If not, were I the librarian, though I&#8217;d know I&#8217;d done the right thing, it would give me nightmares for as long as I still had dreams.</p>
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		<title>By: Powers</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6382</link>
		<dc:creator>Powers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6382</guid>
		<description>Tom, the article states there was an agreement of privacy, so saying "There's no expectation of privacy" is wrong.  The library, based on my reading, guaranteed the privacy of the computer records &#38;c. in the absence of a legal document.  The librarian was following the agreement the library had made with its patrons.

Besides, if the information was *that* vital, why'd it take eight hours to get a warrant?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, the article states there was an agreement of privacy, so saying &#8220;There&#8217;s no expectation of privacy&#8221; is wrong.  The library, based on my reading, guaranteed the privacy of the computer records &amp;c. in the absence of a legal document.  The librarian was following the agreement the library had made with its patrons.</p>
<p>Besides, if the information was *that* vital, why&#8217;d it take eight hours to get a warrant?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6381</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://comicsidontunderstand.com/wordpress/2008/07/19/find-the-fallacy/#comment-6381</guid>
		<description>But the whole point is what the police thought they might find.  Presumably they're looking for information in the browser cache that may have indicated where the girl was intending to go (fragments of email or IM, Mapquest searches, websites of local businesses).  It's easy in hindsight to say that the police should have targeted the uncle, but they didn't necessarily know where the uncle was at the time either.  

Let's be clear: There's no library privacy issue here.  The police were not seeking borrower records of any sort.  There is no expectation of privacy in internet use on a public terminal because the user is sitting in a public place at the time.  Librarians can and do look over patrons' shoulders to see what they're doing.  I suspect that if a patron in the Randolph library had been accessing porn or white-supremacy websites, this librarian would not have hesitated to violate his privacy and shut him down.

So if there are no actual interests being protected, the librarian is just a self-righteous twit who thinks that sticking it to the Man relieves her of any obligation to use good judgment.  She better hope that there wasn't any information on that computer that would have allowed the police to head off a meeting between the girl and her uncle during the eight-hour wait.  If there was, then she doomed that girl to die.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the whole point is what the police thought they might find.  Presumably they&#8217;re looking for information in the browser cache that may have indicated where the girl was intending to go (fragments of email or IM, Mapquest searches, websites of local businesses).  It&#8217;s easy in hindsight to say that the police should have targeted the uncle, but they didn&#8217;t necessarily know where the uncle was at the time either.  </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be clear: There&#8217;s no library privacy issue here.  The police were not seeking borrower records of any sort.  There is no expectation of privacy in internet use on a public terminal because the user is sitting in a public place at the time.  Librarians can and do look over patrons&#8217; shoulders to see what they&#8217;re doing.  I suspect that if a patron in the Randolph library had been accessing porn or white-supremacy websites, this librarian would not have hesitated to violate his privacy and shut him down.</p>
<p>So if there are no actual interests being protected, the librarian is just a self-righteous twit who thinks that sticking it to the Man relieves her of any obligation to use good judgment.  She better hope that there wasn&#8217;t any information on that computer that would have allowed the police to head off a meeting between the girl and her uncle during the eight-hour wait.  If there was, then she doomed that girl to die.</p>
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